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[Legendary Sidekick]

That's perfectly fair! Yeah, I like that. That gives an incentive to use the stun skill or risk taking a hit.

I suppose sneaking from behind becomes possible, but head on, there's a risk.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm on lunch now, finishing the update. I don't have my laptop with me, which has all the image files and my image editing software, so no map for the new round. There are only minor changes, which will be described in the text. New map will follow for the subsequent round.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

One thought on attack of opportunity…

Any chance we could work it out so an enemy who just took a swing at you and missed doesn't get the attack of opportunity?

Two reasons I suggest this:
1 - Every grappling technique I've ever learned was meant to be used after someone throws a punch, slashes with a knife or sword, etc. In other words, as the grappler, I want you to take a swing at me.
2 - I think if every attempt to grapple is met with a free attack, it tips the scale too far the other way. As we were playing, I had no real incentive to punch/kick because grappling is way more likely to succeed. But if we change it so every time I attempt a grab, I get attacked, and if hit, attacked again… now I'm so much better off punching and kicking I won't grapple.

 

[SeverinR]

#1:Makes sense, if they have a sword leveled at you, you can't leap in and grab them without jumping on their sword.
The attack moves the blade so a counter attack can be made.

Would it also make sense if the person doesn't swing, the grappler can't attack either? Since there would be no opening.

#2: Not sure how that would work in the battle. They swing using their attack, you grapple so they get a chance to swing again? Of course, a round is set up with moves and counter moves, with one real attack in the mix. The first attack could be one of the moves, the free attack becomes a second one, since the grappler open themselves up to the second attack. (much like the attack opened the target up to the grappling attack.)
Would be very good to discourage use. But instantly silencing a mage is good encouragement, even if the mage gets two attacks to stop you.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

From what I understand, provoking an attack of opportunity means when you walk up to grab someone, they get to hit you before you grab them. (And that makes sense—it keeps unarmed characters from just walking up to grab you.)


So you try to grapple…
…if the enemy misses with his free attack, you grapple. You land the attack if your grapple check wins.
…but if he hits, you take damage and don't grapple. Then it's the enemy's turn, so he gets to attack again.

If the enemy has more than a 50% chance of hitting you with the free attack, it's a foolish gamble. You could throw a punch and likely hit him, or attempt a grapple but if you fail, you might be hit twice. In that case, you're better off throwing the punch.


If the enemy doesn't swing at all and is aware of the grappler (in evasive stance?), that would mean he still gets the free attack if the grappler attacks him.

If the enemy is sneak-attacked or engaged in battle with someone else, I believe he doesn't get a free attack.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

@LS:

I think something like an attack of opportunity would solve the running up issue. When they added it to 3e, that (among other things) was the sort of thing it was meant to address. In other words, if you try to make a grapple against an armed opponent and they're aware of you, they're going to be able to attack once before you get a chance to grab them. Makes sense, in that an opponent isn't going to stand still and let you run all the way up to them and start grappling.

That way you can still do a standard move and grapple in the same round, but the enemy gets one swing as you're trying it.

My original interpretation of this was: the opponent gets an attack of opportunity if you just walk up and grab him.

If he doesn't get the attack of opportunity while you're already engaged in battle, then I'm totally fine with this.

My concern is that if there's a free attack for every grapple attempt on the same opponent, three consecutive attempts to grapple potentially leads to getting hit twice, four times, six times—and that could happen even if you roll natural 20s on the grapple checks.

 

[Steerpike]

If they've already attacked, we can disregard the attack of opportunity, I think. C&C doesn't have attacks of opportunity. They were added in 3e to address some issues that didn't make sense in combat. But in some situations they also present other problems. Under the rules of 3e, even if you'd made your normal attack, you'd still get an attack of opportunity if someone tried to grapple. My rule, even under 3e, was just to apply a reasonableness standard to attacks of opportunity. If it made sense to have one, then it was allowed. So in this case I'd say if they'd already received a standard attack there is no need for an AOO.

The update is up. I think I've covered everything here, but even on my lunch break I'm always interrupted so if I've neglected anything let me know and I'll make a revision ASAP. I think I have everything though.

 

[Ireth]

Liadan failed her CON check. Do I still get to roll an attack for her this round, or is she unconscious/otherwise out of the fight?

 

[Steerpike]

Ireth: the poison makes her fall asleep. Since it's not a spell effect, the usual elven bonus for saving throws against sleep spells doesn't apply. She doesn't lose any further hit points as a result of the poison, but she won't be awake next round.

 

[Ireth]

What if Cadell tries to use Cure Light Wounds on her next round? In the slim chance he succeeds, will that wake her for the following round?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Aww… mixed feelings about my STR check. I want that high roll for my next grapple check! Of course, I don't know what happens if I keep Baldhart on her back while her opponent is growing, so rolling that may have been a smart move. I also don't know if the successful check will help her use "leverage" to her advantage or not, but it's worth a shot.

Also, 3 rounds in and no CON save yet, so the caster has +3 CON… or more. And I'm guessing it's a prime in her altered state.

*gulp*

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

What if Cadell tries to use Cure Light Wounds on her next round? In the slim chance he succeeds, will that wake her for the following round?

I don't know about this^, but…

It seems like Liadan's safely on high ground. So if Cadell doesn't have any means of healing her, his best bet might be to prepare for the next baddies to pop out of the dark. I likely put Nissa in a vulnerable position, but she wouldn't just flutter around while Liadan's getting shot.

 

[Ireth]

I don't know about this^, but…

It seems like Liadan's safely on high ground. So if Cadell doesn't have any means of healing her, his best bet might be to prepare for the next baddies to pop out of the dark. I likely put Nissa in a vulnerable position, but she wouldn't just flutter around while Liadan's getting shot.

Very true. And if she's asleep, she'll be lying down and thus fully (or almost fully) covered. And Cadell will have to kneel/lie down beside her to heal her, so he'll have that cover too. That'll help keep things from going from bad to worse as far as they're concerned. Don't want Cadell being taken out of the fight too!

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Don't forget about the +4 for partial cover. That must bring Cadell's AC to 20 or close. It's likely that Cadell can stay in the fight without being picked off easily... and that's likely better protection for Liadan, since we have a lot of low CON characters out there who might get taken out depending how long enemies live to shoot sleepy bolts. (All the high CON party members are hiding in the dark!)

If the guy who shot Liadan falls and the next two come from the same side, Nissa and Aliron are the more likely targets. Nissa doesn't dodge well, so her best hope is that they come with swords... assuming swords aren't covered with sleepy gunk. Her CON is -2, or maybe it's -1 because of a racial bonus. In any case, she'll sleep like a little angel if she's hit.

I'm hoping the next wave comes to Zoran's side. He and Cadell have very high AC. Zoran with a bow might even be impossible to hit. If he has his AC vs. evil (2), extreme dex (3), damn good armor (5) and partial cover (4)...! The enemy needs to roll a 25 to hit him! If he's on the stairs with his large shield and bastard sword, that's a 23 needed to hit.




EDIT - Speaking of numbers, I just noticed the monk gets +2 vs. overbearing checks. Does that mean my STR check to continue my choke hold without being crushed is a 29?

I'd like to think 27 was more than enough anyway, but I just thought I'd ask. Also, I'm referring to the STR check (27), not the opposed grapple (28). I know the +2 doesn't stack if a grapple happens to include overbearing.

 

[Ireth]

I wonder what would happen if Cadell used his next turn to coat one of his own arrows in sleepy gunk and shoot back at the drow who hurt Liadan. There's gunk still on Liadan's sleeve, after all.

 

[SeverinR]

Remember, poison might not be good with alignment or dieties, even if it is just sleep. Thats why Bressel uses clean arrows and Aliron uses the poisoned.

Aliron has 2 more posioned arrows after this shot. (had 5)

Two good rolls, I think they both might hit. Aliron's target might fall from poison, the other might fall from damage, it would be the same on the Kobold chief hit. (I believe it was 7, and if Bressel hit it would be about 20 damage. Probably not enough though, 24-32 hp is what I'm expecting)

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

My interpretation for Brynhild is that you do what it takes to win a just battle. I think her deity would frown on some degree of dishonor, like if Baldhart promised to help the kobolds with intent to kill them later; Baldy needs to be true to her allies. If the kobolds weren't true to her, that would be another story. But that Tarlack was jailed for refusing to take human children gives her reason to believe their story. Even without an oath to Brynhild, she'd back them up the same.

For Ullr, yeah, I could see the god of archery wanting Bressel's arrows untainted. I think for gods, especially the chaotic good ones, it's not just alignment you're looking at but what the god(dess) stands for.




Brynhild is pretty clear about her followers getting in close, so... yeah. Baldy's covering that one. Whether or not she should...

Well, Baldy's either going to see pay-off, or the grappling match gets dragged out until finally the opponent flings her off. If I were doing damaging attacks each turn, maybe I'd have taken the sorceress out or close. Then again, I'm sure the drow would have intervened, hence the choke attempt. Maybe this is the turn that the sorceress needs a CON check, but even if it is...

SP, what is the CON save needed? You said the grapple modifier is calculated into the CON save. So is the difficulty Baldhart's level and the +2 for monk class? Whatever it is, I'm guessing that the altered form has a high level and +3 CON if this is the turn she resists. I'm pretty sure I'll maintain the grapple this round (95% chance with my current roll), so it's the CON save (and whether there is one at this point) that's keeping me in suspense!

I think Baldhart has mixed emotions. She's having the wrestling match of her life. If not for the dead child (and the perceived need to keep her mouth shut), she'd give the sorceress her compliments.

 

[Ireth]

Well, Cadell is agnostic nay-theistic, so he doesn't have to worry about a deity's wrath affecting him personally. And he kinda straddles the line between Neutral Good and True Neutral, so that might give him even less qualms.

 

[SeverinR]

We basically have a thumbnail view of the gods, so I agree, Good gods probably would frown on poison, maybe less with sleep poison rather the fatal poison.
Aliron's God is neutril evil, poison is probably not going to offend her.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

If anything, Alin's goddess might be disappointed that the poison doesn't cause pain.