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[Legendary Sidekick]

I like that he's hoping they won't accept surrender, then cursing himself for hoping that.

Whatever my character might think of him for offering surrender, I like how you're RP'ing him. I know you're still getting a feel for what can be done in game, but keep it up. I like having a paladin in the party—and will love it if he gets to Level 4. (Divine Mount is an awesome class skill!)

 

[Philster401]

Yeah the divine mount is one of the main reasons I choose him one of the the other reasons is that they are unaffected by all diseases and illnesses.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Probably another reason Baldhart should make the case and even prepare to compromise with Zoran's lawful goodness. If he summons a horse from the heavens, she'll be begging to give it a ride.

Brynhild's boon makes Baldy more accurate on a horse, though she likely won't bother with mounted combat now that she vowed to give up weapons. More likely, she'd ask to ride for fun in peaceful moments.



Say… it occurs to me that Batos is willing to be a mount for Tarlack. If Tarlack can ride him, Nissa's an even lighter load. After two years, I will finally make use of Brynhild's boon!

(Tell Brynhild I'm not complaining. Own personal valkyrie > better aim on horseback.)

 

[Ireth]

Cadell is still willing to give Baldhart horseback lessons if we have the time for it. Her solo run on Llucheden didn't really count, did it? XD

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

She loved having Llucheden to herself for over an hour.

Her reason for volunteering to rescue Llucheden was that she hoped to find survivors (human ones), but getting to ride was also a motive.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

What is Baldhart doing? Thanks to my somewhat shoddy research, we have answers!

From Wikipedia: "Sleeper Hold"

BLOOD CHOKE

Blood chokes, carotid restraint or sleeper holds, are a form of strangulation that compress one or both carotid arteries and/or the jugular veins without compressing the airway, hence causing cerebral ischemia and a temporary hypoxic condition in the brain. A well applied blood choke may lead to unconsciousness in a matter of seconds. Compared to strangulation with the hands, properly applied blood chokes require little physical strength.

From eHow: "How to Apply a Sleeper Hold"

THINGS YOU'LL NEED

Two empty hands



INSTRUCTIONS

#1 - Approach your opponent from behind.

#2 - Take your dominant arm and wrap it around the neck of your opponent. Your bicep should be pressed against one side of the neck and your forearm should be pressed against the other side. Apply pressure to both sides of the neck by squeezing your forearm and bicep together.

#3 - Grab the bicep of your free arm with your dominant hand. Use your other hand to press the opponent's head forward toward the elbow of your dominant arm. Keep in mind that your opponent will not be able to breathe if this move is being properly applied.

#4 - Immediately relax your hold when your opponent goes limp, but do not unlock your arms. You must relax your hold enough to allow your opponent to breathe again, otherwise you could cause brain damage or death to your opponent. Keeping your arms in place will ensure your control over your opponent if he wakes up quickly.



TIPS & WARNING

* Never, ever attempt this without proper training and a good reason to apply a sleeper hold.

* If your opponent loses consciousness while standing, it is your responsibility to make sure he does not fall and become injured.

* Improper application of a sleeper hold can cause extensive brain damage or death.

Baldhart would argue that extensive brain damage or death is the proper application, but I'm sure her monk master taught her the safe way for training purposes.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm going to update this afternoon. If everyone hasn't gone by then, we'll push ahead to the next round, regardless. I think we need a rule for choking, though, so I'd like some feedback on that here. The game rules themselves don't have a rule for it. I don't know that d20-based fantasy games in general have a rule for this, though I'll do some looking. The reason there's no rule to provide for the action is essentially once of balance, or more particularly the lethality of the game. A helpless (e.g. unconscious) enemy can generally be killed as a full round action. There are exceptions, for example you couldn't do it to something like a dragon, or it might be difficult with some monsters of non-humanoid anatomy, but as a general rule if you're unconscious and the enemy has the opportunity, you can be killed.

Where the balance issue comes in when it comes to this kind of grappling and choking is that is becomes very easy to eliminate enemies as well as players. You may, for example, encounter creatures like ogres who have incredible strength - enough that most players wouldn't be able to escape their grapples. A rule that allows choking out in the manner described above (and any of you who've seen this happen to someone knows that it can happen in less than a ten second round) would mean a high risk of death for overpowered PCs within two to three rounds.

We can adopt any of a variety of rules, ranging from the most deadly to least deadly:

1. After a successful grapple, a check is made to get the person in a choke hold. If the victim doesn't make a CON save, they are unconscious. The round following this, if nothing else intervenes, they can be killed. This is the deadliest interpretation. It mirrors most closely what LS is talking about, above.

2. After a successful grapple, a check is made to get the victim into a choke hold. The victim can remain in the hold for a number of rounds equal to the CON modifier, and then every round after that they have to make a CON check. If they fail, they are unconscious (and can therefore be killed in the next round).

3. After a successful grapple, the attacker can inflict automatic subdual damage every round that they maintain the grapple, whether through choking or otherwise. Once the victim reaches zero HP the victim becomes unconscious and could be killed in the next round. This basically follows the rules as they are written, which don't allow for a victim to be choked out but as I recall do allow the grappler to inflict this kind of damage (which could be described as choking, among other possibilities).

For the most part, when it comes to relatively weak enemies who aren't likely to get out of a grapple, I've gone with the assumption they can be rendered unconscious. But as we're moving on to other foes, we need an actual rule to govern this. The important thing to keep in mind here is that whatever rule we adopt here can and will be used by monsters against players when the opportunity presents itself.

Of the above, #2 seems a decent balance between rendering someone helpless almost immediately, and thus being able to kill them, and not being able to knock them out this way at all. If everyone would rather go with #1 or #3, I'm fine with that as well.

If anyone has their own idea of what a rule should look like, other than the three above, post it here and we can discuss the pros and cons of each approach.

 

[Philster401]

Idk about another rule but, what about if while a character uses a choke hold they are open to a attack or have a negative two AC or something of the like.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

#2 is what we have in the Grappling thread.

Choke/SubmissionPurpose: Make opponent pass out. / Temporarily disable a limb.
Roll: Grapple check*


*For non-monks, a grapple check is the same roll as a STR check.




Opponent must make a STR/DEX check to overpower/evade. If grappled, the opponent must make a CON save to prevent the effect of the grappling technique. If the opponent has a CON bonus, he gets that many additional turns to resist until he needs to make a CON save.




Any disruption to the hold frees the opponent.

If the sorceress has a CON bonus, then she has that many turns of resists before the KO. If not #2, I'd rather see #3 than #1. I don't want choke holds to be so powerful that my character has no reason to hit anyone.

Also, note the last line in that quote. Any intervention stops the choke. So basically, if Baldhart does choke out this mage, the drow have themselves to blame for not being able to see the grapple and do something about it.




In fact, I was also thinking about PM'ing you and suggesting nerfing what's in the grapple thread. I'll throw it out here now:
* First nerf - no auto-stun with slams and throws. (However, I think that…
…a slam should be able to lead into a choke, with the choke effect beginning in the following round.
And we could justify the monk's stun skill being applied to the throw, with both the grapple check and the STR check having to succeed for the stun to work.)
* Second nerf - add a movement rule: to grapple, you need to get close first. I don't think I should be able to walk up and grab someone, or why would I ever use a punch or kick? I think the grappler needs to already be close, like within 5 feet. Maybe even already engaged, so either you hit the opponent or the opponent hits you. (This wouldn't contradict anything that happened in the current fight.)

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I'm okay with following the d20srd.org rulings as well, and ditching everything else in the grapple thread. I do think we should keep the must-be-within-5-feet rule, though!

Those rules also negate the DEX bonus, which is sort of like what Philster is saying… except Baldhart doesn't have a DEX bonus to lose! (The -2AC would happen in the sense that a fighter can go for the grappler's back and get the rear attack +2 hit bonus.)



Those rules make the choke like your option #3, and they also allow the monk to opt for lethal damage without penalty. (Non-monks take a -4 penalty to the grapple check for lethal moves.) In that case, if we make that rule change, I would roll 1d6+3 for the two turns I've grappled, right?

If so, here are my rolls:

((This brings the damage to 36—even Baldhart can't take that kind of a beating!))

I'm assuming "lethal damage" still means I need to either administer the killing blow or keep the hold going to -10 HP for actual death.




My vote: #2 or #3

I like #2 because it's different from damaging attacks (slams) and comes with the risk: if you're stopped, no damage was done at all. It makes the choke unlike the slam.

I'm fine with #3 though it makes the choke and the slam alike, so it seems to remove the strategic element of using one over the other. But still, in the current battle the sleeper was a quiet attack. So there is a reason to choose, come to think of it.

I don't like #1 at all. Even if it's the most realistic in terms of KO time, that would make the choke hold better than the level 10 monk skill. As much as I like kicking ass, I don't want THAT.

 

[Ireth]

I think #2 is the best option.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

The more I think of it, I would also lean to #2 over #3.

As long as choke-outs can be stopped, there's a disincentive to attempt them most of the time. This battle is a fluke, since the drow darkened the room and may have unwittingly screwed over the sorceress. If they could see, we'd have to put in effort to prevent others from disrupting the grapple.

In fact, if the room hadn't gone dark, I'd have gone with a pin-attack/stun. A choke-out was the plan, but that only made sense when we thought we could have one fighter for every drow. The guy on the stairs goofed up Baldy's plan, but now it seems the drow had a plan of their own, and that works in Baldhart's favor.

 

[SeverinR]

Don't forget, what our strong can use ib others, other strong can use on our weaker.
What prevents someone from running up and choking everyone?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Don't forget, what our strong can use ib others, other strong can use on our weaker.
What prevents someone from running up and choking everyone?

That's why I suggested nerfing grappling a little bit. I'm the one doing it, and I think it's OP if I can rush from 30 feet and grapple.

In fact, I was also thinking about PM'ing you and suggesting nerfing what's in the grapple thread. I'll throw it out here now:
* First nerf - no auto-stun with slams and throws. (However, I think that…
…a slam should be able to lead into a choke, with the choke effect beginning in the following round.
And we could justify the monk's stun skill being applied to the throw, with both the grapple check and the STR check having to succeed for the stun to work.)
* Second nerf - add a movement rule: to grapple, you need to get close first. I don't think I should be able to walk up and grab someone, or why would I ever use a punch or kick? I think the grappler needs to already be close, like within 5 feet. Maybe even already engaged, so either you hit the opponent or the opponent hits you. (This wouldn't contradict anything that happened in the current fight.)

This^ would prevent enemies from running up and choking.

With SP's option #2 (which is what is in the Grappling thread already), any intervention from either side stops the grapple and no damage is done.

This makes it so choke-outs are potentially a quick win in single combat, but ineffective in a battle of two small armies where anyone could hit anyone. (In both cases, that's about right for a choke-out.)

 

[SeverinR]

Exactly, run in past swinging swords and put someone in a choke hold, many with no chance or the "natural 20" being the only way to survive.
Wouldn't be much to the game if the strong could grapple to death every weaker opponent no matter what weapon or spell they had.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I completely agree with what you're saying.

Just let's not forget that, prior to this battle (which I still say is a fluke, as the drow's darkness made it easier to choke out their lady), some people (not me) were saying the monk is a weak class.

How I see it: the unarmed monk is strongest up close. From far away, the advantage goes to the caster or mage. Casters tend to be more effective than archers, except when spells blow up in their faces. So you have balance there. Up close, you have armed and unarmed fighters. The armed fighters do more damage or sacrifice damage for other benefits (like a shield). The unarmed don't hit as hard, but can opt to grapple.

 

[SeverinR]

Casters were the nuker before uncontrolled magic. Now they must save(roll to hit) to actually get the magic off and unlike any class, they can harm/kill themselves or the group if they miss.

Caster is a very weak class now. They basically must roll to hit ac 10 to get the spell off, (in addition to any to hit roll if the spell requires it), then a save if they "miss", if they miss again, they and those around take damage. Turning a equal battle into a loss, or an underdog fight into a massacre. It tends to be less noticable damage as they get higher levels, but still painful damage to risk a spell.
Also to cast a spell, the caster should step away from the group, and in doing so become a very good target. If the tanks stay near, the caster might harm them, if the caster moves away, they could get killed.
Give me 1 good archer over a spell caster anyday.

Granted a higher level caster can do some damage but they can still do serious damage to themselves. Not sure what the damage is, but I bet the damage goes up as spells get more powerful.



MOnk is good up close, and can move to get in close quickly.

 

[SeverinR]

Looking back trying to find how much damage a spellcaster can do to themselves made me think, (scary I know)
If a low level spell caster could get a meteor storm spell or some mega high level spell, they become a suicide bomber.
Run into a crowd, try to cast the spell, uncontrolled magic running loose, massive damage to all around the caster.
Caster dies but takes out alot too. A retributive strike anytime they face death.

Alot of damage was done to the party when the enemy caster attempted to cast a spell she couldn't handle. I think it was a fireball spell or similar. Imagine if it was a 8th or 9th level spell.

 

[Steerpike]

OK, I'm glad everyone had a chance to act. I didn't get back to the computer yesterday, but I've got an update almost done that I'll be able to finish at work.

We will go with #2 for the grapple/choke rule. Also, the difficulty of the CON save made by the victim will be based on the grapple modifier of the attacker. That takes into account the grappler's skill when the victim is making the check.

Casters, at least at the outset of this campaign, are both weak and/or dangerous, depending on how you play them. As Severin noted, if you don't care about corruption or living or dying, you can do a lot of damage as a caster. We've had the "suicide bomber" effect happen unintentionally, where a caster took out almost all the bad guys and about half of his allies with a botched high-level spell. Also, remember that non-casters can attempt spells as well, but it is much more dangerous for them.

Being online, things move pretty slow (heck, we're past the two-year mark). Around the table, at a weekly game night, things move much more quickly, and there are in fact items to be found along the way to bolster casters. I may move some of those up in the sequence of events, since the pace of the online game is slow.

When it comes to grapple and AC, any time you're grappling someone you're going to lose your DEX bonus to AC. A -2 situational modifier would also make sense in some circumstances, but lets hold off on that for now. I don't think the grappler's AC has been a major issue thus far.

 

[Steerpike]

@LS:

I think something like an attack of opportunity would solve the running up issue. When they added it to 3e, that (among other things) was the sort of thing it was meant to address. In other words, if you try to make a grapple against an armed opponent and they're aware of you, they're going to be able to attack once before you get a chance to grab them. Makes sense, in that an opponent isn't going to stand still and let you run all the way up to them and start grappling.

That way you can still do a standard move and grapple in the same round, but the enemy gets one swing as you're trying it.