Dragon's Egg - Rules Questions and Discussion

[SeverinR]

19 fails?
What are we doing here?
1/20th of a chance to succeed? The only success is a 20? We have to crit to succeed?
I know I'm old school D&D but I don't remember ever having to roll a minimum 20 to save on anything.

I can see why they went wild with bonuses. 19 doesn't save, I thought it was bad that a 16 didn't save.
I guess I didn't expect much to change from old school.

The average human with no bonuses would fail 95% of the time and this is fair? 1in 20= 5 in a hundred.

I guess I should read up on the rules, what rule system is this?

 

[Ravana]

Problem is, in this system, target numbers aren't static… and if it's for a non-Prime ability, the number sucks.

Non-Prime base target number is 18.

Person making roll adds level, ability modifier, etc.

The target number is raised by the Challenge Rating (CR) of the roll.

So: if the CR for the save was 2 or more, the target for someone rolling a non-Prime ability would be 20. Darin rolled a 14, added 2 for his level, 3 for being a dwarf resisting arcane magic: result, 19. But he needed more. Which is how I could say in the OOC discussion that I knew the CR wasn't 0 or 1. Might be 2; might be higher than that.

The rules system is Castles & Crusades (C&C). It's a blend of 1st edition AD&D and D&D 3.0.

And no, I don't much like the base target number being an 18 for non-primes, either.

 

[Steerpike]

For non-Prime abilities, the base save is 18. That means if the challenge level of what you're saving against is 0, you need an 18 to save if you're using a non-Prime ability. For even a second level creature, you'd have to have a 20, after total modifiers, to make the save. If CHA was prime, the base would be 12.

Page 4 of the Quick Start Guide has the basics of how the prime/non-prime ability thing works if you want to find a source: http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/cnc_qs.pdf

However, in this case I mistakenly thought Aliron had CHA Prime. Not sure why I had that turned around in my head. But given the GM screw up, I'll leave it open to you to play either way - charmed or not charmed. A get out of jail free card if you want it

 

[Ravana]

((Continued: genealogical explanation for above. Don't read unless you're really into such things.))

3eD&D introduced "Difficulty Classes" (DC), which C&C calls "Challenge Ratings" (CR), just to be annoying. (Which I say advisedly, since they didn't change the name on any other game mechanic taken from D&D, and since DC was part of the d20 System so they shouldn't have felt any need to anyway. I will call them all CR here to keep things consistent.) The point behind them was that more powerful effects and abilities should be harder to resist than weaker ones. Which is perfectly sensible.

However… in D&D, there are only three categories of saving throws: Reflex, Fortitude, and Willpower, which are modified by Dex, Con, and Wis respectively. Even more importantly, though, the target numbers remain the same whether the attribute is "prime" or not, since D&D doesn't use "prime" attributes. So all saving throws start from the same base. And that base isn't 18. It isn't even 12. It's 10, just like AC is.

A character's saving throw bonuses don't advance as rapidly in D&D as they do in C&C: they're based on a different table for each class, similar to the "Base to Hit" progression. C&C obviously decided they didn't want to do this—understandable: it simplified that aspect considerably by making it a straight level bonus. So far, so good.

Likewise, they didn't go back to the D&D1e saving throw table, which had mathematically uneven progressions for each character class in five different save categories. Again, so far so good, since D&D abandoned that as well.

What C&C did try to do was restore something of the difficulty of making saves that was part of the 1e system: reproducing the entire table would be too difficult, but for a short version, saving throws for a 1st level character went as high as 17 (for fighter-types saving against breath weapons or spells), and as low as 10 (for cleric types saving against poison, paralysis or death magic). They managed to capture this partially through the use of prime/non-prime abilities: a fighter would rarely have an INT or WIS as a "prime," so his saves come out higher against spells, which will require a save against one of these in the C&C system.

So… a 1st level fighter with one of these as a non-prime would have a save of 17 (target of 18, +1 for level). Same as the D&D1e table gave them, right?

But only against a 0-level spell… which is where things start falling apart. Because since 1e didn't use CRs, that save would always be a 17, regardless of the level of the spell, and regardless of the "level" (CR) of whatever was using that spell or spell-like ability.

In contrast, in 3e the same fighter would have a saving throw base of 10 modified by the level of the spell plus the caster's ability score bonus. The fighter wouldn't get any bonus for his level (for fighters, Will save bonuses don't begin until 3rd level), but a 2nd level spell cast by a wizard with an INT of 16 (+2) would have a saving throw target number of 14.

In C&C, that same spell would not get modified by the caster's ability score, only the level, but adding the level to the base 18 for a non-prime results in a target of 20.

So what it comes down to pretty much is that C&C went with the worst of both worlds, made it more difficult still by making six saving throw categories (not three or five), then tried to compensate by having the characters become better at their saves more rapidly through leveling. Which is highly unfavorable to low-level characters, unfortunately.

 

[SeverinR]

I hope there is not to many saves like this, the whole party could easily fail.

IMO the saves are to difficult, if it isn't your area of expertise you have to be extremely lucky to succeed. Not just lucky, extremely lucky. Just like in this case, you are extremely lucky if you live.

As we have seen with our rolling system, it doesn't do extreme luck very often.

I think we have 3 people not charmed out of 10? Bald, Ankari, and Keit(and wolf)

 

[Ireth]

Cadell isn't charmed either, so 4.

 

[Ravana]

And now you know why anyone might want to take a human. That third prime attribute is huge when saving throws enter the picture.

 

[Steerpike]

Party size has an impact. Creatures are designed for parties of four or so. We have more than double, so I have to use some higher HD creatures. That bumps saves up above what you might normally get. Some of you are level two already as well. Plus, don't assume you can beat everything you run into. The world is dangerous

 

[Ravana]

Party size has an impact. Creatures are designed for parties of four or do. We have more than double, so I have to use some higher HD creatures. That bumps saves up above what you might normally get. Some of you are level two already as well.

Not complaining: just laying out the math to make it easier for others to understand what's going on. (Had I wished to complain, I could go into far greater detail.… )

Plus, don't assume you can beat everything you run into. The world is dangerous

Best advice in the world. I never make that assumption.

(For this encounter, I was hoping for a particular outcome—which may yet happen, since things aren't finished yet. We'll have to wait and see, I suppose.)

 

[Nihal]

And don't forget we not only have characters who haven't CHA as prime, we have some of the are specifically vulnerable to this kind of attack: Mauve and Algernon. They're simply expected to fail in this kind of check, hah.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

If Aliron is out of jail free, did I get to grab a second person? (Rydh would be in back, and lighter than the rest.)

 

[Ireth]

I was thinking Cadell might target Rydh for possible shield-pushing out of the room, since he's the lightest person I can think of right now who isn't un-charmed or already being carried (or gone, a la Ankari). If not, Cadell might just run after Ankari himself.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Well, it sounds like Severin didn't take his get-out-of-jail free card. Please correct me if I'm wrong—I saw a post of him saying he's not saved, please edit out the posts of him acting as if he is saved, so I had Baldy react to his charmed speech.

And, c'mon, Aliron. "He" and "his" armor? You saw Baldy naked. After last night's Game of Thrones, I think Baldy might not look so bad. Brienne in a bathtub is kinda cute!

 

[SeverinR]

And don't forget we not only have characters who haven't CHA as prime, we have some of the are specifically vulnerable to this kind of attack: Mauve and Algernon. They're simply expected to fail in this kind of check, hah.

Non-prime ability roll, 90% failure. (19 out 20)
non-prime like we are facing, 95% failure (20 out of20)

Prime is 33.3% of abilities, so 66.6% will be 90% chance of failure. (Except for humans 50%)
I hope they don't have death poison, Con. ability 90% likely to die.
Aliron has Int as a primary, 35% chance of survival, but death magic if Int would be 90% failure for others?
This doesn't seem harsh or unsurvivable? (Yes higher level, but the save factor goes up too)

Couldn't go to website at work, classified as "games" who would have thunk it?
So going there now.

 

[Nihal]

Yes, haha. And those two got CHA -1. ;x

 

[SeverinR]

I did look over the spells, death magic isn't common.
But the saves list shows that basically every attribute check has a serious list of checks that if failed would be very unhealthy for a character.

""STRENGTH
Paralysis, Constriction
INTELLIGENCE
Arcane Magic, Illusions
WISDOM
Divine Magic, Confusion, Gaze Attack, Polymorph/Petrification
DEXTERITY
Breath Weapon, Traps
CONSTITUTION
Disease, Energy Drain, Poison
CHARISMA
Death Attack, Charm, Fear
VARIABLE
Spells (see spell descriptions)""

 

[SeverinR]

Well, it sounds like Severin didn't take his get-out-of-jail free card. Please correct me if I'm wrong—I saw a post of him saying he's not saved, please edit out the posts of him acting as if he is saved, so I had Baldy react to his charmed speech.

And, c'mon, Aliron. "He" and "his" armor? You saw Baldy naked. After last night's Game of Thrones, I think Baldy might not look so bad. Brienne in a bathtub is kinda cute!

I have caught myself doing this a couple times.

Sadly, I can't watch Game of thrones until they have a free weekend again, or I buy season 3.

Briene and Baldy...might look very similar.

 

[Nihal]

I might be wrong, but the wolf already attempted knock down (attack) and did a STR check, and the girl already attacked in this round; Keitsumah, I think the other actions will be pushed to the next one.

 

[Keitsumah]

ah. ill go fix that

 

[Steerpike]

Yeah, just to clarify, we're in combat rounds, so one standard action per character per round, though speaking (within reason) doesn't count.