Nihal
Valar Lord
^Damn you! And I've lost track of my posts, the 1000th happened and went away and I didn't even see. D:
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- Thread starter Steerpike
- Start date
That reminds me of a couple weeks back, when I looked at my Odometer and it said
SeverinR
Valar Lord
What is the weight of scalemail? I don't think it would equal 75lbs, I think even the heaviest jousting platemail would be this or maybe a little more.
Special forces swim in full combat gear, I assume they mean uniform, boots, ammo pouches, and weapon above the water. I'm guessing 25 lbs wet swim one arm(the other holding the weapon above water.)
I think Scale mail, might way more then 25.
I think most armor is form fitting, so it would not restrict much movement. Without other stuff, I think he could probably do it.
I don't think he could fight well in water above his head though.
The more weight means you are using strength to push yourself up and alittle forward, rather then normal swimming being pushing forward. ie you sink underwater, stroke pushes your head up and out of the water, breathe, then drop back into water, eventually your strength will only keep you above water with no forward momentum, and then that would fail, and drown. Fatigue happens alot faster with weight and drag.
The weight given for scale is 30 pounds.
•
Now for the reality check.
Scale mail is described in D&D3e as "a coat and leggings (and perhaps a skirt) of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal… it includes gauntlets." (The 1e description is similar. The C&C Player's Handbook doesn't bother describing anything, but in general it tends to follow 3e more often than not.) There are a couple problems with this description.
The first is that scale can be made of things other than metal. If the game (or a GM) doesn't feel like dealing with that, fine. But there's no reason the scales can't be leather as well.
The second is that scale is way more effective than the game thinks it is. In fact, in terms of stopping distributed force (i.e. anything other than a piercing attack), it's better than full plate. And it's pretty good against most piercing attacks, too—especially arrows, which don't have the opportunity to slide up under the scales. There's no guarantee a thrusting attack would, either: it's just as likely to slide off to a side, or downward. Also, scale is often secured not only at the top of each individual plate, but either at the bottom or partway down as well, making upward thrusts that much less likely to have any advantage; even without that, the thrust usually will need to be coming at such a sharp upward angle that it could at best result in a flesh wound anyway.
The reason scale is so effective is because any impact gets spread across, as they correctly note, overlapping plates, each progressively absorbing more of the force and spreading it to its neighbors… as opposed to, say, plate armor, where the impact is against a single plate, albeit a larger one. And not always a thicker plate, either.* In the SCA, where we're always hitting one another with blunt instruments (no matter what they're intended to simulate), scale is actually the best armor you can possibly wear… it's so good that wearers often can't feel blows at all, which becomes a problem when you're fighting on an honor system: in most cases, they need to get accustomed to listening for the impact to know if they've taken a good hit. By comparison, people wearing plate will rarely get bruised through it (more often, they get bruised by it, when a hit drives the edge of a plate into the body), but they can at least feel the jar of impact when they've been tagged.
Which hints at problem #3: armor constructed that way tends to be pretty heavy. So I'd say the weight they give for a complete "suit" of scale is well on the low side.
Regardless of its weight: scale is one of the few armors that is often not fitted closely to the wearer, because part of its defensive value is the force needed to take up the layers of scales. It won't hang like a tent: that would be counterproductive. But it does often "hang" to a certain extent, at least as far as the torso coverage is concerned. And of course for any armor with a skirt, the skirt hangs by definition… may actually leave the legs freer than other armors, but would seriously increase drag.
So, yes, you could probably swim in it, but no, I wouldn't try it if I had a choice. I often tell people unfamiliar with armor, people who think that knights couldn't stand back up on their own if they got knocked down, that in fact correctly fitted armor should allow you to do anything you can do in street clothes. When I was still actively wearing armor, I'd demonstrate this by throwing head kicks: it was a bit difficult in borrowed Gothic plate—I had to take a couple tries before I adjusted to the weight and could get my foot all the way up; in my own somewhat less heavy armor, it was as if I wasn't wearing it at all. But you don't swim in street clothes, either, if you can avoid it. Not just because of the weight, but also because even street clothes are binding to a certain extent when you're swimming.
Special forces can swim with full combat gear… and they undergo amazingly difficult and extensive training in order to be able to do just that. And given the option, they'll much prefer a minisub or a rubber boat to deliver them. Anyone lacking that training will be able to keep himself afloat, maybe dog paddle a bit… for a while. Unless he's in that situation because he jumped off the transport into deeper water than he expected, or happened to slide down a bank into a river, i.e. is within a few feet of solid ground, the first thing he's gonna do is ditch the excess weight.
Wikipedia has a couple of reasonably illustrative pictures of scale armor, for anyone who wants some visuals. (And it's "scale armor," not "scale mail," in the real world: only games call this "mail.")
•
* For anyone who wants to fully appreciate the difference between single plates and overlapping ones, look up the modern body armor Dragon Skin.
•
Now for the reality check.
Scale mail is described in D&D3e as "a coat and leggings (and perhaps a skirt) of leather covered with overlapping pieces of metal… it includes gauntlets." (The 1e description is similar. The C&C Player's Handbook doesn't bother describing anything, but in general it tends to follow 3e more often than not.) There are a couple problems with this description.
The first is that scale can be made of things other than metal. If the game (or a GM) doesn't feel like dealing with that, fine. But there's no reason the scales can't be leather as well.
The second is that scale is way more effective than the game thinks it is. In fact, in terms of stopping distributed force (i.e. anything other than a piercing attack), it's better than full plate. And it's pretty good against most piercing attacks, too—especially arrows, which don't have the opportunity to slide up under the scales. There's no guarantee a thrusting attack would, either: it's just as likely to slide off to a side, or downward. Also, scale is often secured not only at the top of each individual plate, but either at the bottom or partway down as well, making upward thrusts that much less likely to have any advantage; even without that, the thrust usually will need to be coming at such a sharp upward angle that it could at best result in a flesh wound anyway.
The reason scale is so effective is because any impact gets spread across, as they correctly note, overlapping plates, each progressively absorbing more of the force and spreading it to its neighbors… as opposed to, say, plate armor, where the impact is against a single plate, albeit a larger one. And not always a thicker plate, either.* In the SCA, where we're always hitting one another with blunt instruments (no matter what they're intended to simulate), scale is actually the best armor you can possibly wear… it's so good that wearers often can't feel blows at all, which becomes a problem when you're fighting on an honor system: in most cases, they need to get accustomed to listening for the impact to know if they've taken a good hit. By comparison, people wearing plate will rarely get bruised through it (more often, they get bruised by it, when a hit drives the edge of a plate into the body), but they can at least feel the jar of impact when they've been tagged.
Which hints at problem #3: armor constructed that way tends to be pretty heavy. So I'd say the weight they give for a complete "suit" of scale is well on the low side.
Regardless of its weight: scale is one of the few armors that is often not fitted closely to the wearer, because part of its defensive value is the force needed to take up the layers of scales. It won't hang like a tent: that would be counterproductive. But it does often "hang" to a certain extent, at least as far as the torso coverage is concerned. And of course for any armor with a skirt, the skirt hangs by definition… may actually leave the legs freer than other armors, but would seriously increase drag.
So, yes, you could probably swim in it, but no, I wouldn't try it if I had a choice. I often tell people unfamiliar with armor, people who think that knights couldn't stand back up on their own if they got knocked down, that in fact correctly fitted armor should allow you to do anything you can do in street clothes. When I was still actively wearing armor, I'd demonstrate this by throwing head kicks: it was a bit difficult in borrowed Gothic plate—I had to take a couple tries before I adjusted to the weight and could get my foot all the way up; in my own somewhat less heavy armor, it was as if I wasn't wearing it at all. But you don't swim in street clothes, either, if you can avoid it. Not just because of the weight, but also because even street clothes are binding to a certain extent when you're swimming.
Special forces can swim with full combat gear… and they undergo amazingly difficult and extensive training in order to be able to do just that. And given the option, they'll much prefer a minisub or a rubber boat to deliver them. Anyone lacking that training will be able to keep himself afloat, maybe dog paddle a bit… for a while. Unless he's in that situation because he jumped off the transport into deeper water than he expected, or happened to slide down a bank into a river, i.e. is within a few feet of solid ground, the first thing he's gonna do is ditch the excess weight.
Wikipedia has a couple of reasonably illustrative pictures of scale armor, for anyone who wants some visuals. (And it's "scale armor," not "scale mail," in the real world: only games call this "mail.")
•
* For anyone who wants to fully appreciate the difference between single plates and overlapping ones, look up the modern body armor Dragon Skin.
- Thread starter
- #1,005
Post coming soon. Just wrapping up some work tonight
Ireth
Mythic Scribe
I'm totally waiting for something like the Watcher in the Water from FotR to show its tentacles. XDDD
Sparkie
Dark Lord
What's going on right now reminds me of when I caught that 18" smallmouth at my uncle's lakeside house in Wisconsin. Ah, fish tales!
Hopefully this won't be a "the one that got away" story. And... wow! Two max STR barbarians. We will leave no door left unbroken! (Unless were going for stealth, in which case we'll leave it to Aliron.)
Nihal
Valar Lord
Isn't it curious that after 100 pages every roll I do, including spellcasting, seems to finally succeed? Hmmmm...
(Ahhh, I'm so curious to discover what this spell will do!)
(Ahhh, I'm so curious to discover what this spell will do!)
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Nihal
Valar Lord
Mauve:
Hahahahaha!
Hahahahaha!
Sparkie
Dark Lord
Mauve:
Hahahahaha!
I hope this isn't permanent...
Phietadix
Shadow Lord
... and the moral of the story is . . . don't use unidentified magic items. Especially if you're Mauve.
Nihal
Valar Lord
But it sounded like fun! *____*
I hope it lasts long enough fo rthe boat ride. Mauve can hold the back and kick. (I wonder how strong she is - good choice of STR/DEX as primes, if that matters when morphed. I imagine physical attributes and/or the HP die are up.)
Ireth
Mythic Scribe
And Cadell wonders whether to turn around or not... if he does, I hope he doesn't freak out and try to shoot fish!Mauve. ._.
Nihal
Valar Lord
Noooooooooo!
@LS
Yeah, I guess she has some nice bonuses we don't know yet. Let's see...
Hm, and I have no idea now of the difference of size between her and The Pointed Teethed Thing.
That's why Baldhart said those words - hoping to clue party members not to interfere with Mauve.
And NO, she's not jumping in. One naked lady at a time, PLEASE!
Ahh... so THAT'S why Rydh hopes it's not a permanent change.
And, once again, Baldhart will ruin his chance to "help" Mauve while she's un(der)dressed.
Nihal
Valar Lord
LOL! This point of view didn't occurred to me. Hmm, Ryyydh, uh, you bad boy!
This time is worse, now she's truly naked.
About the clarification, it won't prevent Mauve from understanding what she understood. ;x
Ireth
Mythic Scribe
Ooopsie. Missed that. Good thing Cadell's shot missed! ^^;