Welcome to My (Flat) World

[Devor]

Also, @Devor, I was going to roll will vs. the tickle attempt . . . .

Ohh it's fine, I had no idea how the rules would play out on that. I think that Burglarize is actually used for escapes (wiggling your arm free), but even that didn't beat a 5. Physique couldn't do it, and Athletics was an extreme long shot. It was just that tough a roll to beat.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

True.

This may be a good time to mention fate points...

Ruby, if you want your attack to be a 6, you can have that by using your own yellow Fate point. That will increase the likelihood that your opponent won't get up again!

Also, if you don't have a yellow point (boost), there's nothing stopping you from using the white fate points! (The yellows are boosts which fizzle out after the scene ends. There are Fate points you get to keep even if above your limit. Furtano will likely gain one, since accepting a consequence awards a fate point!)

To use the white, you need to "invoke an aspect." In plain English, just RP. Furtano was captured before. He won't become a slave again, or Orc pants, which is a fate worse than slavery. He'll survive this. +2 to physique.

You only have 3 or 4 fate points, so if you want to RP excuses to use them until you run out, you can do that. You'll get them back after the scene (though if Furtano doesn't use Fate points, he'll have extra point next scene if he takes a consequence or two--and come to think of it, he won't be KO'd. A severe consequence will result if physique fails with a -4. A -3 would be 2 stress, plus mild and moderate).

 

[Devor]

I guess I'll take the hint and roll Physique already.

Yay! That's only a |2| stress . . . . box . . . . I didn't label it Physique.

*les sigh*

So what does that mean? |2| stress and which consequences if I don't use a Fate point?

 

[Ruby]

((Hi Legendary Sidekick.

Just to explain: Noma DMed me and said she thought I scored a 6, even though I rolled a 0. So I went with that.

I was late to join this trial version of the Flat Earth game and am trying to understand it.

To be honest, I haven't got a clue what's going on here. I prefer the other system where we just rolled the dice.

This is really complicated.

Last week, I made Fenella start the battle with the orcs by mistake!

Also, if Fenella hasn't got a skill I thought she couldn't do it. I thought she had to use FIGHT to defend.

I'm quite happy to just look at Legendary Sidekick's artwork, and admire the illustrations!))

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

That's fine if you prefer the old way, where a d20 decides everything and you don't need to worry about adding bonuses and adding +2s and all that. In the first Flat Earth play test, we tried D&D rules and then the d20 way we were playing, and players preferred the simpler way.

Still, I thought the Fate system was worth looking into, and whether we keep using it or not, it definitely gave me some ideas that I think are still useful even if we use the simple one-d20-per-turn system.

Since we have at least one player who's been in the game since episode one who prefers the old way, it sounds like the "killer donkeys" need to be d20'd to death the old-fashioned way.

Let's discuss a bit after we kill off those pesky orcs. I'll eventually weigh in with my own opinion and propose my thought for the second test battle. Even if Fate ends up being tossed out due to a preference for natural d20s and Zelda hearts, I am glad to have tried it out.


In the mean time, we'll stick out the Fate system at least while we kill off the last few orcs:

@Ruby, Noma had good reason to think that: it's because the Fate rules confused me a bit too. I didn't realize how advantage rolls worked, since obstacles DO use the value of your die roll while advantages work like Fate points and just add +2. So I actually did say rolling a 6 would add 6 to a roll, then realized that's not how advantage rolls can work. Teaming up on people also doesn't (seem to) simply add the rolls or add-the-rolls-minus-enemy-defense as I thought.

Or maybe it did, and I'm confused now and was right the first time!


@Devor, okay… damage I actually get. (…though I'll reveal this opinion now: I do miss my Zelda hearts!) You were out rolled by five, which means stress box #2 and consequence box #4. Or you use a Fate point and knock it down to mild consequence.

 

[Ireth]

I'm a tad confused about how I'm supposed to roll for this turn. Do I add the +2 to Athletics or Fight? Would dodging the rock with Athletics be a good opportunity for my "Quick Like a Bunny" stunt? You did mention the jackalope boots, which is why I ask.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

@Ireth,

You can add it to either roll. Since you can add it after rolling, I'd say only add to the defense roll if you fail to defend the attack and adding 2 points would make you successful.

If you add 2 to the fight roll, that can't be a bad thing. If it turns out you'd have hit without the +2, that's fine; you hit even harder with the +2.

 

[Ireth]

Well, I got a 3 for the Athletics roll, which seems to be fine. I don't have a bonus for Fight rolls, so I'll be adding the +2 there.

*rolls Fight* A natural 2! Woot! Okay, I'll add the +2 anyway.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

@Devor, you rolled a 3! I replied when I got in, so I just assumed you rolled your full turn and were asking about the 0 #physique. But don't worry that the first roll's not labeled! You needed physique, so I know what you meant.

So take 3 physique and use the 0 for the second roll and add the skill bonus to that. You can also add a +2 to either roll. A 5 physique means no damage... but a boost for the orc. Why? Ask Fate. I feel like the defender won that round.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

When we get to part two of the play-test, we'll go with the old set of rules with some minor updates. Here's a sneak peak at page 1 of my Google Docs file, which is actually just one page so far. But this is the page that highlights how characters are different in a non-statsy way.


CLASS ACTS:
An Amazon can inflict heavy damage with a heavy weapon.
A Fighting Nun can hit 3 enemies with an unarmed combo.
A Huntress can shoot to kill in stealth mode.

A Pixie has a tiny body, plus…
…a Fairy can fly.
…a Muse can sing powerful spell songs.
…a Sugarplum can tinker with technology.

A Shield Maiden can defend herself and others with a shield.
A Valkyrie can fly.

A Brawler can wrestle, plus…
…a Heavyweight can inflict heavy damage with powerful slams and throws.
…a Lightweight can overpower the powerful with choke holds, arm bars and leg locks.

A Mentalist can read minds.
A Pirate can swashbuckle to put the enemy at a disadvantage.
A Preacher can pray for support.

A Samurai can unleash Seitei attack when drawing the katana…
…to counter-attack:

• Mae - Hit a failed attacker twice.
• Ushiro - Hit a failed backstabber twice.
• Ukenagashi - Deflect an attack and hit back.
• Tsuka-ate - Hit 2 failed attackers.

…to attack normally:

• Kesa-giri - Hit an enemy twice.
• Morote-zuki - Hit 2 enemies…
  …if one lives, hit him a 2nd time.
  …if both die, hit a 3rd enemy.
• Sampo-giri - Hit 3 enemies.

…to attack strongly:

• Ganmen-ate - Stun and hit 2 enemies.
• Soete-zuki - Hit a hidden enemy.
• Shiho-giri - Hit 4 enemies.
• So-giri - Hit an enemy 5 times.

…to attack with maximum strength:

• Nuki-uchi - Kill an enemy.

A Succubus knows anyone’s greatest desire.
A Leprechaun has a tiny body packed with both might and magic.


PS- If you're wondering why the samurai's quick-draw attacks are so specific, click the links.
PPS- Leprechauns can fight! I'm picturing spells that make "giant-slaying" possible for the foot-tall fighters. I'm half Irish, but I think leprechauns are so corny. If it ever seems I don't respect them... yeah, that's pretty much it.


So anyway, testing...

Once both systems have been tried out, we'll see what the general feeling is. (Keep Fate or keep the simple one d20 roll thing we were doing in the first place.)

Whether we stick with Fate or not, I'm glad we tested it. I think I went into the test thinking the way I was running the game before didn't have a system. It actually did, but not in a way that players could see. That Ruby finds it more confusing when the system is visible is interesting. I have some thoughts on that, but I'd like to know how Ireth and Noma feel about that. Devor, Aspasia, of course you can weigh in with opinions of the Fate system as well.

The upside for me is that I think I'm happy to run the game with either system. I'm also glad to be testing just as an excuse to draw Lily. She's fun to draw, especially in grappling positions. (I guess by the old Flat Earth rules, she's a huntress-brawler who wrestles like a heavyweight.)

 

[Devor]

To be honest, I thought I understood Fate before you started explaining things. I think you made it sound more confusing than it needs to be.

Skills are great. Aspects are great. Consequences are great (I rerolled Physique because I wanted one!).

Stress Boxes, Fate Points, Boosts, Advantages and Obstacles are more confusing than they need to be. And that leveling pyramid is a little what-the? But I think those are all easy to fix without making too big of a deal about it.

And they do make sense from a game design perspective. They're no trickier than, say, D&D.

I think we could just say:

> Skills can Attack, Defend, Give +2 to somebody's roll, or give -2 to your opponents - if the RP of it makes sense.

> You get a handful of +2 Boosts you can use during the game, if you can Roleplay it well.

> When you level up, you get +1 to a skill - the GM will tell you which row you can pick a skill from to level up.

> You get 2 hit points. After you lose your hit points, you take a consequence and you get your hit points back.

I don't think that's too bad. But that's me.

 

[Ireth]

I personally find the old d20 system a lot easier to keep track of, though I do like Skills, Aspects and Stunts in the Fate system. I think a hybrid of the two would be a good way to move forward.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I like that A LOT^.



If everyone prefers to test round 2 with Fate simplified, that's fine too. Then we don't need to redesign the characters, reassign skills, or worry about classes.

I think I like the pyramid, but NOT the way you level the skills. I'm thinking the same as you, Devor, only more like you'd spend 3 points to promote a +2 to a +3, or 5 points to promote your +4 to a +5. But you wouldn't keep shifting skills around on the pyramid.

I also agree with ditching stunts and just using Fate points (or MP or whatever you'd call it) to do stunt-like things.

Your consequence-then-get-HP-back idea can work if we have a display like an old-school video game. When HP runs out, instead of "losing a life" you "take a consequence"...?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

@Ireth, do you think Devor's solution works as a hybrid? (I may tweak it slightly, but I basically agree with every point.)

 

[Devor]

I like the Fate dice from an RP point of view. I'm enjoying the fact we can roll "Rapport" or "Will," and the dice roll is pretty clear, right away, whether it was very successful or a little bit lackluster.

The reason that so many games use a d20 is because it works well with a lot of really tiny combat bonuses. In D&D, it's common for a roll to look like "1d20+2+3+1." It lets them make the game very complicated. If you want a simple game, there's not much advantage to a d20.

 

[Ireth]

For the most part it sounds good, though the 2 hit points thing kinda confuses me. I preferred the Zelda hearts.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Well, a randomizer is just a tool. The way we used the d20 could have worked as easily with Fate dice, 2d6, a spinning wheel, a fistful of coins or any randomizer. A certain number was your success target, and every character had hidden bonuses. All that +/– stuff was behind the scenes. The only advantage the d20 had (as it was used) was that % success was a no-brainer to calculate.

That said, I do like how the Fate dice work.


@Devor, one question: when you say you have 2HP, you mean that every attack you fail to defend takes away 1HP, right? If that's the case, I'm all for that. (Though physique and pixie tininess will make for a range of 1-4HP.)


@Ireth, I would use 2 Zelda hearts for the 2HP. Or whatever I do, Zelda hearts are a must! I miss my Zelda hearts and hate circled numbers.


@Ruby, you were the first to vocalize the confusion with Fate rules. Are you up for testing with the same die rolls you're now using, but with simple version that Devor proposed? (Mariya's spells would ALWAYS give +2, but you could use a boost to give yourself +2 at the same time.)

If so, and if I don't get any objections, I'd like to test that. We can even keep the character sheets, though I'll bury the extras/stunts half. Aspects won't be required to use your +2 boosts, but we can keep the aspects anyway.

 

[Devor]

@Devor, one question: when you say you have 2HP, you mean that every attack you fail to defend takes away 1HP, right? If that's the case, I'm all for that. (Though physique and pixie tininess will make for a range of 1-4HP.)

How did the Zelda hearts work? Was each heart one hit point, or could you have half a heart like in Zelda?

Regardless, I was thinking something like:

^ ^ | ^ ^ | ^ ^ |

Where each ^ is a Zelda heart, and each time you reach a bar you take a consequence.

 

[Ruby]

Well, a randomizer is just a tool. The way we used the d20 could have worked as easily with Fate dice, 2d6, a spinning wheel, a fistful of coins or any randomizer. A certain number was your success target, and every character had hidden bonuses. All that +/– stuff was behind the scenes. The only advantage the d20 had (as it was used) was that % success was a no-brainer to calculate.

That said, I do like how the Fate dice work.


@Devor, one question: when you say you have 2HP, you mean that every attack you fail to defend takes away 1HP, right? If that's the case, I'm all for that. (Though physique and pixie tininess will make for a range of 1-4HP.)


@Ireth, I would use 2 Zelda hearts for the 2HP. Or whatever I do, Zelda hearts are a must! I miss my Zelda hearts and hate circled numbers.


@Ruby, you were the first to vocalize the confusion with Fate rules. Are you up for testing with the same die rolls you're now using, but with simple version that Devor proposed? (Mariya's spells would ALWAYS give +2, but you could use a boost to give yourself +2 at the same time.)

If so, and if I don't get any objections, I'd like to test that. We can even keep the character sheets, though I'll bury the extras/stunts half. Aspects won't be required to use your +2 boosts, but we can keep the aspects anyway.

Hi Legendary Sidekick,

I wasn't criticising the game, actually; I was just saying that I was confused. I thought it was just me being dumb as I'd joined the test game really late and I didn't understand how to roll the dice. I had to guess what to do in the dice room!

It was a little cry for help.:help:

I didn't even realise you were experimenting with a new game system. I thought it was set in stone and agreed, as it were.

I like the other system better, because it's simple and I can get on with my writing/procrastinating.

I'd be quite happy to tell the role play story as simply as possible.

Maybe, if you could explain it a bit more...

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

The Zelda hearts were 3hp each. Pink = healthy, red = damaged, purple = more damaged.

While the Fate system doesn't use HP, it works out so the toughest characters have 22hp and it's 15hp without physique. If we keep the Fate dice and have attack-minus-defense as damage, I say 5 hearts as the base, and physique adds a heart or two depending on the level.

I'm under the opinion that if we narrow things down to Devor's bulleted points, perhaps the Fate system won't be so confusing. I made some minor tweaks:

* Skills can attack, defend, give +2 to a friendly roll, or give -2 to an enemy roll.
* Boosts are always +2, and you can stack a boost with another +2.
* Health is displayed as hearts, which can take full or partial damage from attacks.
* Consequences can happen at when down to 2 or 3 hearts (≤50% health) and when down to your last heart.
* When leveling, you get 2 skills points, which you can use to learn or improve skills.




Now comes the question of dice. Please share your thoughts; here are mine:

The d20 and Fate dice are just randomizers. The game is just as balanced no matter which is used. However, each type of die roll works better when it comes to what exactly we're rolling.

Fate dice work best if…
* We roll defense
* We use the value of the dice (attack minus defense) to determine damage
* We stick to a 2-rolls-per-turn limit
* You want a 4-tier skill system (as you're using now)
* You don't mind typing in the skill and bonus
* You prefer, or at least don't mind, that you can clearly see you hit or miss by comparing attack and defense rolls

A d20 works best if…
* We don't roll defense
* We use ranges of the dice (such as 1-9/10-15/16-19/20) to determine damage
* We stick to a 1-roll-per-turn limit
* You want to roll the default "1d20" and not worry about how much your skill improves your odds
* You don't mind if I make the skill pyramid a 2-tier system so I have less numbers to factor in
* (same pyramid you're using now, but effectively with the +3s and +1s increased by 1)
* You don't mind, or even prefer, the numbers that determine hit or miss being hidden

PS- The d20 can work with bonuses being typed in, of course, but then I think you might as well type "4u1+bonus."