Aravelle
Mystagogue
Anyone know info on Vikings travelling to the middle east and what they did there? Or do you have any book recommendations? I've looked here online and there isn't much.
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Vikings and Middle East?
- Thread starter Aravelle
- Start date
CupofJoe
Istari
I can't find the book I read this in [I've been looking for a couple of days before this post] but I remember they used the rivers of Russia to get to the Black and Caspian seas. They traded and acted as mercenaries [one of the byzantine emperors was very proud of their viking bodyguards]. In the 11C there was a huge sea battle between the vikings and the people in what is now modern day Iran, it was the largest sea battle the vikings ever had - hundreds of ships/boats. I think they won but were so weakened that they couldn't capitalise on it.
The Vikings traded with everyone, Jade, Silks and Nutmeg have been found in graves goods as well as silver from Islamic countries. Silk only came from China and Nutmeg only came from a few islands in the Indonesia [I think the Jade came from the Khmer Empire].
There is even a theory that the Vikings got as far as China in person because Chinese sailing got dramatically better in the 11-12C [and then they sailed around the world and discovered America
]. We know the Romans got that far in the 4C so it is possible...
Hope this helps.
The Vikings traded with everyone, Jade, Silks and Nutmeg have been found in graves goods as well as silver from Islamic countries. Silk only came from China and Nutmeg only came from a few islands in the Indonesia [I think the Jade came from the Khmer Empire].
There is even a theory that the Vikings got as far as China in person because Chinese sailing got dramatically better in the 11-12C [and then they sailed around the world and discovered America
]. We know the Romans got that far in the 4C so it is possible...Hope this helps.
Kievian Russia - sort of a forerunner to russia proper, a nation built along the river routes between the Baltic and the Black Sea's, reaching at times to the Caspian, if memory serves. Founded in the 9th century AD, lasted until the mongol conquest (more or less). But east and south of that region - the present day middle east - they were pretty much mercenaries and traders.
I use Kievian Russia as a very rough template for one of the nations in my world.
I use Kievian Russia as a very rough template for one of the nations in my world.
Graylorne
Shadow Lord
Check the Varangians on Wikipedia; the Vikings involved with the Rus (Novgorod, Russia) also formed the body guard of the Byzantian Emperors (Varagian Guard). Plenty links for further search.
- Thread starter
- #5
Aravelle
Mystagogue
Yes, this was very helpful.
What is it you think they traded? What goods did they have to give?
What is it you think they traded? What goods did they have to give?
Graylorne
Shadow Lord
One of the things I know they bought, was silk. Vikings were very fond of bright colors and fine clothes, so silk was sought after by their upper classes.
They traded not so much their home products, as stuff they bought in, say, Ireland, and sold in Spain. The vikings built trade centers all over Europe and probably bought & sold everything that wasn't nailed to the floor: ceramics, cloth, coins, slaves, jewelry, skins, etc
They traded not so much their home products, as stuff they bought in, say, Ireland, and sold in Spain. The vikings built trade centers all over Europe and probably bought & sold everything that wasn't nailed to the floor: ceramics, cloth, coins, slaves, jewelry, skins, etc
writeshiek33
Mystagogue
so far as i know they did not go there but i am no expert in the matter on a side subject if you everwant to know history through the moors(arabs espicailly the cusades then i reconmend crusades through arab eyes by malouf it unique spin on history same history but from different pov oh just discovered this placemight help told you i was no expert but here you go VIKINGS — Infoplease.com
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Zero Angel
Dark Lord
Although it's fiction, the 13th Warrior/Eaters of the Dead movie/book deals with the interaction between a poet from Baghdad and Norsemen.
Shockley
Scribal Lord
As the resident 'Guy who wakes up in the morning and starts studying northern Europeans,' let me come in on this.
While there were plenty of exotic items found in Norse communities, that's no guarantee that they ever interacted with China, Indonesia, etc. It's far more likely that they were the end of a trade route or had raided a trade route. The chances of a Viking ship actually reaching the far east are low because of how they sailed. The Vikings would not have left sight of shore - that was just not their methodology, so any trip to the far east is nearly impossible.
That said, we know of Viking interactions with the Middle East and (more important to me) Middle Eastern interaction with the Vikings. Zero Angel mentioned Eaters of the Dead and mentions the book as fiction, but some of the characters presented are not. Ibn Fadlan, the main character of the book/movie, was a real person. Ahmad ibn Fadlan was a secretary to an ambassador (Omar Sharif's character in the film, I think) from the Abbasid Caliphate (based out of Baghdad) sent to negotiate a treaty with the Volga Bolgars (in modern day Russia). The group had a hell of a trip north (fighting bandits, angering local leaders, etc.) but finally reached the Bolgars. At the Bolgars Ibn Fadlan encountered Rus traders, and went on to witness them bury their chieftain. That's where the historical account ends and Eaters of the Dead begins.
A more noteworthy traveler was Ahmad Ibn Rustah, who not only met the Rus but traveled north with them. He lived among them for a while, taking account of how their economy worked, how their communities were laid out, etc. His account is different from Ibn Fadlan's in that Ibn Fadlan was disgusted by the Rus, while Ibn Rustah describes them as being fairly clean, treating their slaves well, etc. (likely, Ibn Fadlan based his criticism on the fact that the Rus did not adhere to the Islamic laws on cleanliness, while Ibn Rustah was more open to their methods). It's not really clear how much of the Norse world Ibn Rustah actually experienced, as there's a fine line between what he got first hand and second hand. He seemed to have extensive knowledge of what was going on in western Europe at the time (It seems like he had a better grasp of what was happening in England than, for example, the Byzantines), which either indicates the width of his travel or the expansiveness of Rus knowledge.
Prior to the adventures of Ibn Fadlan and Ibn Rustah, the Rus had been at war with local peoples. About fifty years before Ibn Fadlan's journey the Rus had taken over the city of Barda (in what is now Azerbaijan, and had been the capital of what we call Caucasian Albania), and that conquest occurred during a century (roughly) of military struggle between the Caucasian Muslims and the Rus. About thirty years before Ibn Fadlan's journey, Sviataslov of Kiev overran and destroyed the Muslim Khazar state.
With that out of the way, let's get to what the Norse would have been doing.
We know for a fact that the Norse were involved in negotiations and conflicts with the Ummayads of Iberia. The Vikings took a trip down the Guadalquiver, showed up in Seville and sacked the city. A few years later they returned, sacking Lisbon, Cadiz and then making a return visit to Seville. These raiders actually held up in Seville, establishing a short-lived (two months or so) Viking state in the heart of Iberian Islam.
Bjorn Jarnsida (my favorite of all vikings for many reasons, and the man who gave me my current e-mail address) then led an expedition into Spain. Since Bjorn Jarnsida was more competent then any other figure in Europe at this time (I'm a little biased), his raids are more impressive. He attacked Galicia, then raided down the coast of Portugal before returning to the Guadalquiver and giving Seville a third helping of Vikings. He then crossed into North Africa, raiding a number of Ummayad settlements and even capturing the city of Nekor in the Rif of Morocco. He then turned his attention to the Baeleric Islands (Majorca and Menorca). He then returned to Iberia, sacking Pamplona and kidnapping its king.
(This isn't the thread for it, but check out Bjorn Jarnsida if you ever get the chance. He's one of those figures who pops in and out of the histories of numerous other countries and always impresses. He was involved in the Viking conquest of England and Ireland (His brother, Ivar the Boneless, would become King of Ireland and his various other siblings would take up positions throughout northern and eastern England), negotiated a major peace deal with Charles the Bald, etc. His most impressive story begins after he left the Baeleric Islands but before the attack on Pamplona - he and his brother sailed west, taking the city of Pisa. They then marched inland, finding the town of Luna. They couldn't breach the walls and laid siege. The Vikings then sent word that their leader had died, and they wanted a Christian burial - the coffin of the Viking leader and a small guard were led into the city and presented to the priest. Bjorn leaped out of the coffin, killed the priest, then fought his way to the gates and let his army inside. He then went home, killed the king of Sweden (Eysteinn Beli) and ushered in the Munso dynasty. Cool guy.)
Outside of that and a few Vikings fighting in Anatolia for the Byzantines, there isn't that much interaction.
One thing I am curious about is the naval battle between the Persians and the Vikings mentioned in this thread. I've never heard of that. Do you have any info on it, Cup of Joe?
While there were plenty of exotic items found in Norse communities, that's no guarantee that they ever interacted with China, Indonesia, etc. It's far more likely that they were the end of a trade route or had raided a trade route. The chances of a Viking ship actually reaching the far east are low because of how they sailed. The Vikings would not have left sight of shore - that was just not their methodology, so any trip to the far east is nearly impossible.
That said, we know of Viking interactions with the Middle East and (more important to me) Middle Eastern interaction with the Vikings. Zero Angel mentioned Eaters of the Dead and mentions the book as fiction, but some of the characters presented are not. Ibn Fadlan, the main character of the book/movie, was a real person. Ahmad ibn Fadlan was a secretary to an ambassador (Omar Sharif's character in the film, I think) from the Abbasid Caliphate (based out of Baghdad) sent to negotiate a treaty with the Volga Bolgars (in modern day Russia). The group had a hell of a trip north (fighting bandits, angering local leaders, etc.) but finally reached the Bolgars. At the Bolgars Ibn Fadlan encountered Rus traders, and went on to witness them bury their chieftain. That's where the historical account ends and Eaters of the Dead begins.
A more noteworthy traveler was Ahmad Ibn Rustah, who not only met the Rus but traveled north with them. He lived among them for a while, taking account of how their economy worked, how their communities were laid out, etc. His account is different from Ibn Fadlan's in that Ibn Fadlan was disgusted by the Rus, while Ibn Rustah describes them as being fairly clean, treating their slaves well, etc. (likely, Ibn Fadlan based his criticism on the fact that the Rus did not adhere to the Islamic laws on cleanliness, while Ibn Rustah was more open to their methods). It's not really clear how much of the Norse world Ibn Rustah actually experienced, as there's a fine line between what he got first hand and second hand. He seemed to have extensive knowledge of what was going on in western Europe at the time (It seems like he had a better grasp of what was happening in England than, for example, the Byzantines), which either indicates the width of his travel or the expansiveness of Rus knowledge.
Prior to the adventures of Ibn Fadlan and Ibn Rustah, the Rus had been at war with local peoples. About fifty years before Ibn Fadlan's journey the Rus had taken over the city of Barda (in what is now Azerbaijan, and had been the capital of what we call Caucasian Albania), and that conquest occurred during a century (roughly) of military struggle between the Caucasian Muslims and the Rus. About thirty years before Ibn Fadlan's journey, Sviataslov of Kiev overran and destroyed the Muslim Khazar state.
With that out of the way, let's get to what the Norse would have been doing.
We know for a fact that the Norse were involved in negotiations and conflicts with the Ummayads of Iberia. The Vikings took a trip down the Guadalquiver, showed up in Seville and sacked the city. A few years later they returned, sacking Lisbon, Cadiz and then making a return visit to Seville. These raiders actually held up in Seville, establishing a short-lived (two months or so) Viking state in the heart of Iberian Islam.
Bjorn Jarnsida (my favorite of all vikings for many reasons, and the man who gave me my current e-mail address) then led an expedition into Spain. Since Bjorn Jarnsida was more competent then any other figure in Europe at this time (I'm a little biased), his raids are more impressive. He attacked Galicia, then raided down the coast of Portugal before returning to the Guadalquiver and giving Seville a third helping of Vikings. He then crossed into North Africa, raiding a number of Ummayad settlements and even capturing the city of Nekor in the Rif of Morocco. He then turned his attention to the Baeleric Islands (Majorca and Menorca). He then returned to Iberia, sacking Pamplona and kidnapping its king.
(This isn't the thread for it, but check out Bjorn Jarnsida if you ever get the chance. He's one of those figures who pops in and out of the histories of numerous other countries and always impresses. He was involved in the Viking conquest of England and Ireland (His brother, Ivar the Boneless, would become King of Ireland and his various other siblings would take up positions throughout northern and eastern England), negotiated a major peace deal with Charles the Bald, etc. His most impressive story begins after he left the Baeleric Islands but before the attack on Pamplona - he and his brother sailed west, taking the city of Pisa. They then marched inland, finding the town of Luna. They couldn't breach the walls and laid siege. The Vikings then sent word that their leader had died, and they wanted a Christian burial - the coffin of the Viking leader and a small guard were led into the city and presented to the priest. Bjorn leaped out of the coffin, killed the priest, then fought his way to the gates and let his army inside. He then went home, killed the king of Sweden (Eysteinn Beli) and ushered in the Munso dynasty. Cool guy.)
Outside of that and a few Vikings fighting in Anatolia for the Byzantines, there isn't that much interaction.
One thing I am curious about is the naval battle between the Persians and the Vikings mentioned in this thread. I've never heard of that. Do you have any info on it, Cup of Joe?
CupofJoe
Istari
I've been trying to find the book all afternoon. It has a whitish cover and its in here somewhere...
The battle was about 1060 and to do with customs tariffs if I remember right.
Okay - found the book and I was wrong in almost all details...
Rus - Viking raid in 912-13 involving 500 ships. They attacked Abasgun & Ardebil but were chased down and destroyed by Khazars at Itil. And it was nothing to do with tariffs and all about the money...
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Shockley
Scribal Lord
As insane as what I'm about to say may seem, five hundred ships is large, but not overly so, for the Vikings. If the Rus were using anything particularly similar to the Knarr, they had a fleet of about ten thousand men. Just for reference, Cnut the Great led 600 ships against Anund Jacob's 480 at Helgea.