Is it ever okay to lie?

[Reaver]

Message received and replied to. Thank you, Lotus!

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

[h=2]Is it ever okay to lie?[/h]

No.

Whether or not the lie is forgivable is up to you, of course. There's a certain line that I would never cross nor would my wife. I won't specify since this isn't about me. My point is that if this is one of those lies "that can end relationships," then it sounds like she crossed that line. Ending the relationship will be painful. Staying in the relationship is also painful.

Two questions:
(1) Is shortening your prospects of finding another woman by staying with your current girlfriend worth that pain? (Yes/No)
(2) Do you trust or forgive her? (Yes/No)

If both questions have the same answer, you know what to do.

 

[Reaver]

Thanks for the advice, Legendary One. I sent you a PM with the details.

 

[Devor]

I think that most people would agree that honesty is a very important factor in any healthy relationship; it certainly is to me. Today my girlfriend told me a HUGE lie that she has to know that I know isn't true. So my question to you, my fellow Mythic Scribes, is this: When you're dealing with someone you REALLY care about, is it ever okay to lie? I'm not talking about the proverbial "little white lies" that don't really do any harm. I'm talking about the big ones. The ones that can end relationships and cause pain. I thank you in advance for your responses.

I've been accused of telling whopping lies when I was being perfectly honest, so my advice is to question your gut and your girlfriend a little bit to make sure that the lie is in fact a lie before you make a decision about your relationship.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

In general, whether or not you knowingly convey false information to someone (i.e. tell a lie) depends entirely on what you're hoping to accomplish, and the relationship you have with them. Lying to someone to prevent them from murdering someone else is probably going to be considered a-ok by most people. (But probably not by the guy you're lying to.) Lying to someone you're in an intimate relationship with is probably not okay for any reason, except in certain narrowly defined cases (e.g. lying to preserve a surprise birthday party, lying to keep them from committing suicide, etc.).

 

[The Blue Lotus]

But it isn't, philosophy is best left to scholars and academics in their ivory towers. Down on earth, our emotions are real and our lives are real.

When we are hurt by those we love, it rocks our very foundations. I haven't had my heart broken enough times, but when it has been, it can usually be tracked to dishonesty, sometimes it was mine, sometimes theirs. We can choose to work through things or cut them short and neither is an easy road.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner

Well said.

 

[fleamailman]

(the goblin felt that the world of adults was one of accepted lies and flattery, saying "...and yet, even when one actually knows the truth of it, often one doesn't want to rock to boat by pointing those lies out then, so first there is that I suppose, yes, but also one doesn't want to betray one's understanding here by giving that explanation away so to speak...", and yes, the goblin too, had played dumb often enough, adding "...you see, knowledge in itself is nothing more than mere facts, yet actually understanding the consequences of that knowledge is the source of one's authority to reveal or hide it, and it's this authority alone that lets you both see the deceptions in others, and to react accordingly where possible...")

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Some lies are not acceptable.

This is a very real and painful ordeal in "Reaver's" life, so I would kindly ask people not to get cute. I hope everyone who wishes to respond is taking Reaver's feelings into consideration.

 

[Steerpike]

In a close relationship like that of a boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife, etc., I think lying has to be avoided. The problem is that the lie does far more damage down the road than do the direct consequences of the lie. The ultimate effect of the lie is to hack at the foundation of the relationship, and that's hard to fix.

Of course, I don't advocate lying under other circumstances either, but in a relationship it can be especially damaging. I believe it is best to confront the situation early and give the other party a chance to come clean and explain why they lied. Then things can be sorted out from there.

 

[Reaver]

It's okay, Sidekick. I want to see everyone's take on this topic. No matter how trite or trivial. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted this thread at all.



@Steerpike: In this situation, there isn't much to be sorted out. I'll PM you with the details.

 

[fleamailman]

("...ok, let's go through this again, someone you don't know has mentioned that his girlfriend, who one doesn't know either, has lied about something undisclosed, and then asks the rest of us if that is acceptable..." mentioned the goblin totally without malice here, answering "...the world of adults is one of lies again, knowledge in itself is just mere facts, yet the consequences of that knowledge gives you the authority to either disclose it or hide it now, in other words reveal that you know it or pretend that you don't know it...", in fact, the goblin lived with lies all the time, he knew that everyone hid something so everyone was lying to him, but what of it, the world of adults is one of lies)

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Goblin, I know Reaver well enough to respect him both as a person and as a writer with amazing talent, and well enough that I rarely refer to him as "Reaver." As for the "something undisclosed," I'm not psychic but I am intuitive. I won't reveal what I know except that my intuition was confirmed. None of this is relevant to the point of my last post anyway.

I was simply asking that we try to take Reaver's troubles seriously. However, Reaver's response clarifies that he's not the least bit bothered by your riddle-speak, so perhaps I'm the one who was out of line.

 

[Devor]

It's okay, Sidekick. I want to see everyone's take on this topic. No matter how trite or trivial. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted this thread at all.

Then speaking more broadly, I think a lie can become reasonable if the truth will cause needless pain, has little relevance on the future, and if there's an alternate medium by which the person accepts that they will be held reasonably accountable. If the purpose of the lie is genuinely to avoid pain, and not to avoid accountability, I would argue that it might become justified. That wouldn't really be a passionate argument on my part, just a hypothesis to consider, and it wouldn't really extend to justify the thing being lied about, of course.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't have any relevance to your particular situation, Reaver, but I figure it would be an interesting take on the topic at hand.

 

[sashamerideth]

If I may offer up this anecdote regarding lying.

A friend of a friend (call her Ann) had someone who had a crush on her for years (Bob) so much so that Bob never dated anyone else. They had been friends but Ann wasn't that in to Bob, she wanted to hook up with Fred, the feeling was mutual.

A couple years ago Bob got cancer, a childhood one that came back. She let Bob think she was with him while he was getting chemo, that didn't work leaving him a few weeks to live. She lied to Bob about her feelings, so he wouldn't die without thinking he had fallen in love.

Ann and Fred never got together, and Bob died happy but lied to. He probably knew she was lying about her feelings but let himself be deluded. I have no idea where anyone in my little story is now, too far disconnected from it really.

I won't pry, but I hope whatever you are going through doesn't hurt you too much.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner

 

[Reaver]

("...ok, let's go through this again, someone you don't know has mentioned that his girlfriend, who one doesn't know either, has lied about something undisclosed, and then asks the rest of us if that is acceptable..." mentioned the goblin totally without malice here, answering "...the world of adults is one of lies again, knowledge in itself is just mere facts, yet the consequences of that knowledge gives you the authority to either disclose it or hide it now, in other words reveal that you know it or pretend that you don't know it...", in fact, the goblin lived with lies all the time, he knew that everyone hid something so everyone was lying to him, but what of it, the world of adults is one of lies)

("...Reaver responds in the voice of The Dude: 'What the f**k are you talking about, Walter?'...to which Walter replies, " “The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature.”)

 

[Reaver]

If I may offer up this anecdote regarding lying.

A friend of a friend (call her Ann) had someone who had a crush on her for years (Bob) so much so that Bob never dated anyone else. They had been friends but Ann wasn't that in to Bob, she wanted to hook up with Fred, the feeling was mutual.

A couple years ago Bob got cancer, a childhood one that came back. She let Bob think she was with him while he was getting chemo, that didn't work leaving him a few weeks to live. She lied to Bob about her feelings, so he wouldn't die without thinking he had fallen in love.

Ann and Fred never got together, and Bob died happy but lied to. He probably knew she was lying about her feelings but let himself be deluded. I have no idea where anyone in my little story is now, too far disconnected from it really.

I won't pry, but I hope whatever you are going through doesn't hurt you too much.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner

It's nice to see an example of a lie that makes someone happy until the day they die. I should be so lucky. Thanks for sharing this very nice antidote (this word intentionally put here because it helps.)

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

("...Reaver responds in the voice of The Dude: 'What the f**k are you talking about, Walter?'...to which Walter replies, " “The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I’m talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT… Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature.”)

(...the Legendary Sidekick reads Reaver's dude-like reply, saying, "You are Evil!" but then the sidekick ponders on what evil truly is, and "if the end justifies the means then is it truly an evil act?" he thinks to himself, or at least he thinks he thinks to himself, until a crippled man in a wheelchair asks the sidekick, "What in God's holy name are you blathering about?" ... "I'll tell you what I'm blathering about," the sidekick replies to the cripple, but he's interrupted by a properly attired manservant who says, "Mr. Lebowski is DISABLED," which is a reply to the sidekick's politically incorrect use of the word "cripple" ... the sidekick is bewildered, and asks himself if he is even capable of internal monologue ... Walter and the Dude answer his question with a question which the sidekick feels compelled to censor to "What the heck are you talking about?" and that is all he can do, for the sidekick has no answer...)

 

[Jess A]

This is interesting.

I have a very close friend who refuses to tell a lie. It sparked a very, very deep conversation about the nature of lying and the reasons people lie. I believe it is fine to lie when it is for the greater good, whether that means saving somebody's life or lying to preserve a birthday surprise (white lies). However, I don't like to lie when it serves to hurt or manipulate. If it is one thing I really hate about relationships of any kind, it is drama. I like directness in any sort of relationship - friends, family, business and romance. Others don't necessarily like that. I suppose it depends on you as a person - would it have served the relationship better if she had told you outright? And what was her purpose for lying? I guess looking at her motive is a good idea. Why would she be afraid to tell you and what does that say about you or the way you present yourself to her?

That said, over-analysing it can cause more problems and add to the inner drama. Ugh.

I hope you sort it out.

 

[fleamailman]

("...indeed your posts are getting so much better humans..." smiled the goblin thinking there was talent too, but then he wondered if he could have put his own post another way by saying "...if you play cards with someone, naturally you'll hide your cards from him as he will hide those cards from you too, for such is the world of adults now, where if you then say "look, I can see your cards, you're lying" he'll just change his stance and hide those cards from you more effectively than before, plus he will also know that you know too, simply you have surrendered your authority here, or lost the initiative so to speak, so my advice is not to say that you know but gently find out why the lie was there in the first place without letting on that you know...", where everyone knew that goblins were not to be trusted)

 

[Xanados]

Lying is sometimes a necessity.
Lying is sometimes unnecessary and can cause further conflict.
It depends on the person and the situation.