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I need to know about knife-fighting
- Thread starter advait98
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Fluffypoodel
Mystagogue
there is a show on Netflix called Deadliest Warrior that takes warrior from different time periods and pits them against one another. there is an episode about an Apache vs a roman Gladiator that was really good. the Apache were pretty good knife fighters so that might help you out.
wordwalker
Dark Lord
Careful there.
Deadliest Warrior can be fun to watch, and I'm told the real action is in the online debates afterward. But it's not something to rely on at all, not for its supposed "history" of who used what (a knight with a crossbow, right) but also not for how they analyze weapons and always seem to emphasize raw carving and smashing power over reach and control.
For knife-fighting, I've heard different things about different maneuvers:
- Hold it like a sword to slash up someone's arm to drive him back, and stab the stomach or (up through the ribs) into the heart
- Hold it underhand, not for the "icepick stab" but to slash it right across the throat -- faster kill
(Or, there was the battle that ended with the heroine throwing a knife through the villain's heart, sigh. You can stab there with the right upward twist, but you'd throw for the throat.)
Kit
Scribal Lord
I have trained some knife work.
We were taught that stabbing is suboptimal- there are just too many protective bones in the way of many of your good targets, you run the risk of having your blade get stuck and jerked out of your hand, and even if you get a nice deep stab there's just not assurance that it will stop the attacker quickly enough. With a narrow stab wound, what happens a lot of the time is that the tissue springs back together and the person can keep going for a while. Often it will not bleed much, and the person won't even know they've been stabbed until later. Most people who get stabbed don't realize they've been stabbed until they see blood. Check out this (warning- graphic!) pic: http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/stab-wounds-don’t-always-kill/ and this one http://www.themonteoz.com/2012/06/18/woman-stab-ex-boyfriend-at-adenta/ The first gal didn't even know she'd been stabbed. She walked home and her parents noticed that she had a knife sticking out of her back. The second guy, his attacker obviously had a great shot at his wide-open back, but as you can see the blade didn't go in very far and there's not much blood. That guy was still up and walking around too. Also, you will notice that both attackers lost their weapons.
Slashing, now- get a few really nice slashes, and the person will start bleeding out. It usually won't put the guy down instantaneously, but in just a few minutes he can lose enough blood to get weaker, lose consciousness, then die. If they're punching at you, you slash at their arms. If you are close enough to reach the body, slash anywhere you can reach. People tend to be very protective of their eyes, so if you slash toward the face, most people can't help jerking back and likely losing some of their enthusiasm for attacking you. If you can land a cut on the scalp or upper half of the face, that bleeds a great deal and can obstruct the attacker's vision. The three pics on this page are the type of thing you're going for: (warning- REEEEEAlly graphic!) http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/...-at-your-murder-trial-after-they-convict-you/ That sort of wound will bleed like a mofo, and you still have your knife in your hand to keep making more of them.
Throat strikes of any type are iffy, because it's a small, narrow target, and the human reflex of putting the bony chin down to protect it is pretty automatic. I wouldn't go for the throat unless we were clinched up and there was a really good opening.
Throwing knives is a circus trick, not a practical fighting maneuver for most people. And again, throat- not so much. Even the best circus knife thrower in the world would have a challenge hitting the throat on a moving attacker.
We were taught that stabbing is suboptimal- there are just too many protective bones in the way of many of your good targets, you run the risk of having your blade get stuck and jerked out of your hand, and even if you get a nice deep stab there's just not assurance that it will stop the attacker quickly enough. With a narrow stab wound, what happens a lot of the time is that the tissue springs back together and the person can keep going for a while. Often it will not bleed much, and the person won't even know they've been stabbed until later. Most people who get stabbed don't realize they've been stabbed until they see blood. Check out this (warning- graphic!) pic: http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/stab-wounds-don’t-always-kill/ and this one http://www.themonteoz.com/2012/06/18/woman-stab-ex-boyfriend-at-adenta/ The first gal didn't even know she'd been stabbed. She walked home and her parents noticed that she had a knife sticking out of her back. The second guy, his attacker obviously had a great shot at his wide-open back, but as you can see the blade didn't go in very far and there's not much blood. That guy was still up and walking around too. Also, you will notice that both attackers lost their weapons.
Slashing, now- get a few really nice slashes, and the person will start bleeding out. It usually won't put the guy down instantaneously, but in just a few minutes he can lose enough blood to get weaker, lose consciousness, then die. If they're punching at you, you slash at their arms. If you are close enough to reach the body, slash anywhere you can reach. People tend to be very protective of their eyes, so if you slash toward the face, most people can't help jerking back and likely losing some of their enthusiasm for attacking you. If you can land a cut on the scalp or upper half of the face, that bleeds a great deal and can obstruct the attacker's vision. The three pics on this page are the type of thing you're going for: (warning- REEEEEAlly graphic!) http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/...-at-your-murder-trial-after-they-convict-you/ That sort of wound will bleed like a mofo, and you still have your knife in your hand to keep making more of them.
Throat strikes of any type are iffy, because it's a small, narrow target, and the human reflex of putting the bony chin down to protect it is pretty automatic. I wouldn't go for the throat unless we were clinched up and there was a really good opening.
Throwing knives is a circus trick, not a practical fighting maneuver for most people. And again, throat- not so much. Even the best circus knife thrower in the world would have a challenge hitting the throat on a moving attacker.
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As Kit said, thrown knives are not a serious attack during an actual violent encounter (or most other times, for that matter). They might be used as a distraction at most.
The most important thing about portraying a knife fight is that it is very up-close, very chaotic, and very messy. No matter how good you are, if the fight goes on for any length of time at all then ALL parties are going to get bloodied. Knives are fast and as Kit mentioned most fighters will likely use quick, slashing motions that are A) not particularly dangerous on their own and B) extremely hard to block/avoid.
Also keep in mind the off-hand. A knife fighter will probably also be a proficient grappler, boxer, brawler, etc etc. They will seek to control the opponent's weapon by grabbing at the wrist, or trapping it somewhere where the other fighter cannot land a serious blow (trapping the knife arm at your own side is effective).
The question of slashing vs. stabbing is a complicated one. Experienced knife fighters (which I am not, though I have also had some training in various formal martial styles which use short bladed weapons) will probably use both in the same fashion that experienced fighters of any sort will have a variety of techniques at their disposal. Stabbing runs the risk of the point catching and sticking in bone, thus such attacks would likely be directed at soft targets on the body - the gut, primarily.
Given the complexity of the subject, if you're worried about technical aspects I'd suggest writing some scenes and then putting them in the showcase for people to pick apart.
As a final note, remember that some "unrealistic" aspects can always be forgiven when writing fiction - if you write it well.
The most important thing about portraying a knife fight is that it is very up-close, very chaotic, and very messy. No matter how good you are, if the fight goes on for any length of time at all then ALL parties are going to get bloodied. Knives are fast and as Kit mentioned most fighters will likely use quick, slashing motions that are A) not particularly dangerous on their own and B) extremely hard to block/avoid.
Also keep in mind the off-hand. A knife fighter will probably also be a proficient grappler, boxer, brawler, etc etc. They will seek to control the opponent's weapon by grabbing at the wrist, or trapping it somewhere where the other fighter cannot land a serious blow (trapping the knife arm at your own side is effective).
The question of slashing vs. stabbing is a complicated one. Experienced knife fighters (which I am not, though I have also had some training in various formal martial styles which use short bladed weapons) will probably use both in the same fashion that experienced fighters of any sort will have a variety of techniques at their disposal. Stabbing runs the risk of the point catching and sticking in bone, thus such attacks would likely be directed at soft targets on the body - the gut, primarily.
Given the complexity of the subject, if you're worried about technical aspects I'd suggest writing some scenes and then putting them in the showcase for people to pick apart.
As a final note, remember that some "unrealistic" aspects can always be forgiven when writing fiction - if you write it well.
Kit
Scribal Lord
As Kit said, thrown knives are not a serious attack during an actual violent encounter (or most other times, for that matter). They might be used as a distraction at most.
Might as well just hand him the damn thing and say, "Here! Have an extra weapon to attack me with! And now I'm unarmed! You're welcome!"
True dat. When someone has a knife in their hand, it's very easy to get fixated on that blade and totally forget that the attacker has another hand (maybe with a second weapon in it), two feet, and can also move in on you bodily. When I started sparring MA'ists who were attacking me with a rubber knife, what usually happened was that my attention got glued to the knife, and all of a sudden I was eating a hard punch from the off hand, or getting kicked- followed up (now that I was distracted and possibly injured) with a slash!
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- Thread starter
- #7
SeverinR
Valar Lord
Military teaching:
1st rule in a knife fight?
Expect to get cut.
Taekwando, I believe teaches a counter to the underhanded knife stab, where you spin and drive the knife into the attacker.
Never really studied knife fighting but I like the style of having the dull edge of the knife along the forearm, you can slice, or stab, and even when you block, you might cut them. Kind of like a cat claw, retracted when not attacking, but able to strike if needed.
This guy doesn't retract it, but shows the versitility of holding it this way.
Knife fighting styles - Bing Videos
in this video it shows the using the persons blade against them, it is at 1:51
cat like knife stile - Bing Videos
1st rule in a knife fight?
Expect to get cut.
Taekwando, I believe teaches a counter to the underhanded knife stab, where you spin and drive the knife into the attacker.
Never really studied knife fighting but I like the style of having the dull edge of the knife along the forearm, you can slice, or stab, and even when you block, you might cut them. Kind of like a cat claw, retracted when not attacking, but able to strike if needed.
This guy doesn't retract it, but shows the versitility of holding it this way.
Knife fighting styles - Bing Videos
in this video it shows the using the persons blade against them, it is at 1:51
cat like knife stile - Bing Videos
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