"Generic European Fantasy"

[Devouring Wolf]

So recently I've been reading a lot of discussion and condemnation of "generic European fantasy" which may be the three most irksome words I've ever heard for a number of reasons which I wanted to discuss, because it seems to imply that European fantasy is inherently generic and that non-European fantasy is automatically more fresh and interesting and as someone with a keen interest in history (both European and non-European) this is simply not true.

What makes fantasy worlds seem generic is a lack of care put into the world-building, and often a lack of research since a large amount of fantasy draws influence from real world history. A story with a vaguely Medieval setting is boring, a story based on medieval Estonia, Portugal, Greece or Germany is vastly more exiting. Even England and France, the which oft elicit groans from veteran fantasy readers still have so much more to offer. So we've seen vaguely medieval English fantasy a million times, what about England during the War of the Roses, the Viking Raids, or the Black Death or why do medieval England at all when you could draw inspiration from the cusp of the industrial Revolution, or prehistoric England? I think you get my point.

Non-European fantasy is no stranger to lazy world-building either. If you've any knowledge of Asian history reading "pan-Asian" fantasy will probably make you want to chuck the book across the room, same goes for pan-African fantasy. Non-European cultures are not monoliths, nor should they be treated as such. I shudder at the idea of reading "Asian fantasy" but a fantasy story inspired by Chinese, Korean, Indian or Kyrgyz history sounds fascinating to me.

Good world building is all about specificity, and a lot of the detail that makes fantasy worlds so real comes from the real world. Of course if one gets too specific, they might as well be writing alternate history (which is fun in its own right but please, please don't take the Holy Roman Empire, add magic, change all the place names and call it a fantasy world)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there a million good reasons to write non-European fantasy, but European fantasy being generic is not one of them. I'm sure plenty of you already know all this, but I had to write this post because as someone who loves history the phrase "generic European fantasy" breaks my heart a little bit. Generic fantasy is generic fantasy no matter where its set.

 

[Banten]

Western European medieval history has been the basis for fantasy for decades. It's therefore understandable for people to get sick of it. Ofcourse this does not mean that Western European medieval history is any less interesting than the history of any other period and place. Think of it like this: Grilled cheese sandwiches are really, really good right? (No is not acceptable). But Grilled cheese everyday, quickly becomes boring and "Generic". Same thing with fantasy.

Not for me though. I'm a history lover and a Grilled cheese aficionado.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Strongly feeling that this was in response to what I said earlier, haha.

What i meant by "generic European" wasn't that Eurpoean-based fantasy is always generic. I'm just tired of seeing Middle Ages stasis type stuff with elves and dwarves and magic swords and bearded wizards and quests and MacGuffins and evil lords and prophecies and farm boys and--sigh, all of it. A story can be done well and entertain me while still including every one of these things. (maybe not the prophecy; that i can barely forgive. You're a hero because It Is Your Destiny. Not because you chose to be a hero.) Thing is, these things have been done and subverted and re-subverted over and over again and it's a very narrow slot to squeeze yourself into because fantasy allows you to do literally anything.

That's not to say that making a story look non-European will fix it. I have read and heard of plenty of equally generic "Asian-flavored" and "Romanesque" fantasy that drives me equally bonkers. There is so much willy-nilly mixing of Japanese and Chinese cultures, so much misusing of foreign words to make the text more exotic. Name people Ping, reference kimonos and rice balls and chopsticks and bamboo and We'll Bring Honor To Us All...it's that easy, right? Non-European based fantasy is trendy in YA right now, but still the settings and cultures seem so painfully generic. I recently read (well, attempted, I quit) a book that was supposedly based on the Roman Empire. I'd heard so much praise for the world-building, but...where? Where was it? The names were Roman-sounding. There was an emperor. That's it.

Now, i'm a huge history buff. What i want is a fantasy based on Vietnamese history. (I'm reading about it in history and there is some truly awesome stuff in there.) A fantasy infused with Appalachian history and heritage. Inuit mythology is awesome and why isn't anyone doing it?? Why isn't there Ice Age era fantasy? Pre-Columbian American fantasy? I will admit that i find French and English history really, really, REALLY boring. All those kings! All those wars! Kill me now! But what about vikings? What about the black death? and all those people that AREN'T French or English? They have stories worth telling too.

I'm obsessed with alternate history. Recs would be appreciated.

Anyway--my posts were about fantasy in general being generally confined to a small range of inspirations. When something is done and overdone constantly, it starts to be generic. I realize now that it isn't accurate to say 'European' to mean that, since european history itself is so diverse, but...I think Tolkien set a precedent that continues to define fantasy. A very narrow and (at least to me) boring precedent. It's just so frustrating that people don't step outside of it when they have literally infinite freedom. There are so many books i wish someone would write.

Well, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself...right?

 

[Devouring Wolf]

Western European medieval history has been the basis for fantasy for decades. It's therefore understandable for people to get sick of it. Ofcourse this does not mean that Western European medieval history is any less interesting than the history of any other period and place. Think of it like this: Grilled cheese sandwiches are really, really good right? (No is not acceptable). But Grilled cheese everyday, quickly becomes boring and "Generic". Same thing with fantasy.

Not for me though. I'm a history lover and a Grilled cheese aficionado.

Well I'm vegan so I'm not a fan of anything with cheese (I know, the horror) But back to the actual discussion. I don't feel like this is necessarily true. Dragons, wizards, and farm boys have been staples of fantasy for a long time but people aren't getting tired of them (except the farm boys but I would argue the reason people hate that trope has less to do with the fact its overdone and more to do with the fact that it causes some serious believably issues)

A lot of people now days find elves and dwarves to be cliche, but are they really or is it just that people too often write them poorly without giving them much development and culture of their own? The same can be said, I think, for European fantasy. I honestly don't read a lot of it because a lot of it is quite generic so I understand what I rebel against is the notion that its inherent of the genre.

I like to think that nowadays when people write non-European fantasy, they do so with the intention of doing those cultures justice and representing them well. I wish more people would take the same mindset when writing European fantasy because it doesn't have to be the same thing over and over again.

 

[Devouring Wolf]

Strongly feeling that this was in response to what I said earlier, haha.

Actually I've been hearing the sentiment a lot. I read a lot of writing advice about putting diversity in fantasy and while I'm all for more diversity a lot of them seem to be saying that European fantasy is boring. Like I said, I do believe in the importance of writing non-European fantasy (just as I believe in the importance of writing LGBTQ+ and PoC characters) but European fantasy being boring is not one of them.

Now, i'm a huge history buff. What i want is a fantasy based on Vietnamese history. (I'm reading about it in history and there is some truly awesome stuff in there.) A fantasy infused with Appalachian history and heritage. Inuit mythology is awesome and why isn't anyone doing it?? Why isn't there Ice Age era fantasy? Pre-Columbian American fantasy? I will admit that i find French and English history really, really, REALLY boring. All those kings! All those wars! Kill me now! But what about vikings? What about the black death? and all those people that AREN'T French or English? They have stories worth telling too. I'm obsessed with alternate history. Recs would be appreciated.

Anyway--my posts were about fantasy in general being generally confined to a small range of inspirations. When something is done and overdone constantly, it starts to be generic. I realize now that it isn't accurate to say 'European' to mean that, since european history itself is so diverse, but...I think Tolkien set a precedent that continues to define fantasy. A very narrow and (at least to me) boring precedent. It's just so frustrating that people don't step outside of it when they have literally infinite freedom. There are so many books i wish someone would write.

Well, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself...right?

This was sort of my point. Personally I love English history, but there is so much more out there. I'm tired of generic Tolkien inspired fantasy and I want something new. It just irks me when European fantasy is painted over with a large brush. People are quick to call out generic non-European fantasy for its crimes, but they seem to expect that fantasy in a European setting is going to be boring and that annoys me so much. Its not generic because its European fantasy. Its generic because its bad.

I guess maybe all of this is a little silly coming from me considering none of the stories I have lined up to write draw on European history (well my WIP has some Russian and Romani inspired people but I don't think they really count because of how little they feature in the story)

 

[Banten]

Well I'm vegan so I'm not a fan of anything with cheese (I know, the horror) But back to the actual discussion. I don't feel like this is necessarily true. Dragons, wizards, and farm boys have been staples of fantasy for a long time but people aren't getting tired of them (except the farm boys but I would argue the reason people hate that trope has less to do with the fact its overdone and more to do with the fact that it causes some serious believably issues)

A lot of people now days find elves and dwarves to be cliche, but are they really or is it just that people too often write them poorly without giving them much development and culture of their own? The same can be said, I think, for European fantasy. I honestly don't read a lot of it because a lot of it is quite generic so I understand what I rebel against is the notion that its inherent of the genre.

I like to think that nowadays when people write non-European fantasy, they do so with the intention of doing those cultures justice and representing them well. I wish more people would take the same mindset when writing European fantasy because it doesn't have to be the same thing over and over again.

First of all, I am very impressed by your incredible restraint. Teach me how to be able to not crave cheese.

Onto the topic. Cultures are done badly by lots of fantasy writers, that is no unique to western european culture. Just look at a lot of fantasy set in China or Japan. Besides that I also don't think your last paragraph really stands. The leading fantasy books and series are written in a western European setting. LotR and ASoIaF being the best examples.

Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring.

It is simply that you are especially interested in History, so am I, but many others aren't. After long exposure to something, it becomes a bit boring. I am also sure that outside the fantasy writing community, this problem doesn't exist that much. Casual readers will likely not be as passionate about this repetition as anyone here.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

First of all, I am very impressed by your incredible restraint. Teach me how to be able to not crave cheese.

I am completely obsessed with cheese. How much I enjoy a food mainly depends on how much cheese it contains. Shredded cheese to cream cheese to Parmesan cheese, I will eat it straight or put it in anything. It's the food that came down from heaven.

I could completely do without meat, I just don't like it, but cheese makes life worth living, and that's why I'm not vegetarian. (That and I love seafood.)

 

[Devouring Wolf]

First of all, I am very impressed by your incredible restraint. Teach me how to be able to not crave cheese.

Onto the topic. Cultures are done badly by lots of fantasy writers, that is no unique to western european culture. Just look at a lot of fantasy set in China or Japan. Besides that I also don't think your last paragraph really stands. The leading fantasy books and series are written in a western European setting. LotR and ASoIaF being the best examples.

Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring. Repetition is boring.

It is simply that you are especially interested in History, so am I, but many others aren't. After long exposure to something, it becomes a bit boring. I am also sure that outside the fantasy writing community, this problem doesn't exist that much. Casual readers will likely not be as passionate about this repetition as anyone here.

Its not really restraint. I'll have a panic attack if I eat anything non-vegan. Sometimes if I'm really depressed I can manage something baked with milk and eggs (like cake or something) but I haven't been able to eat cheese in almost three years.

Anyways, that other cultures have been done badly was also part of my original point. I could go on an entire rant about "pan-Asian" and "Pan-African" settings, which I think are more harmful than generalizing European cultures, but I like to be optimistic and assume everyone on this site can agree non-European cultures need to be treated with respect so I thought we'd talk about European cultures instead. Do I think its as big of an issue as misrepresenting non-European cultures? No. Do I still think its an issue more people should consider? Absolutely.

Maybe AsoIaF will change European fantasy, but the people I know who've read it would say they love it because its not "your typical European fantasy". Admittedly in recent years I think there has been more good European fantasy, but I feel like the perception of it being boring and cliched is still there.

Maybe you're right, it might just be that I love history, but then I find it hard to fathom fantasy fans who don't love history. I mean I'd always assumed what drew people to fantasy was the complicated, in-depth worldbuilding full of richly imagined history, but maybe that's just me. Maybe its really all about the epic battles and dragon riding (nothing wrong with that).

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Maybe you're right, it might just be that I love history, but then I find it hard to fathom fantasy fans who don't love history. I mean I'd always assumed what drew people to fantasy was the complicated, in-depth worldbuilding full of richly imagined history, but maybe that's just me. Maybe its really all about the epic battles and dragon riding (nothing wrong with that).

For me it's the lack of reality's limitations, which is why i find it so deeply frustrating when fantasy writers don't get out there and explore the possibilities, instead self-imposing limitations (like the medieval stasis elves and dwarves stuff i was talking about.) For a genre with so much opportunity to do things in a way that is incredibly new, different and original, fantasy seems to have a very narrow set of ideas associated with it.

That said, once i'm done with the series i'm writing, i want to go over to historical fantasy, alternate history or historical fiction, because i love history.

 

[Banten]

Maybe you're right, it might just be that I love history, but then I find it hard to fathom fantasy fans who don't love history. I mean I'd always assumed what drew people to fantasy was the complicated, in-depth worldbuilding full of richly imagined history, but maybe that's just me. Maybe its really all about the epic battles and dragon riding (nothing wrong with that).

Thought so too originally, but in reality there are a lot of different things that attract people to fantasy. History, linguistics and culture attracted me to the genre, but others come for the mythological creatures, the mentioned epic battles, the grand intrigue, the magic, the unique type of characters possible only in this genre and ofcourse the STORY.

I think for those people it just becomes boring to have a fairly similar background everytime.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

What i mean by restraints and possibilities is, why use elves and dwarves, trying to put a new spin on them eternally, when you can make up your own fantasy races? Why use medieval Europe as an inspiration when 60% of other fantasy stories do as well and medieval Europe is .01% of the cultures and times out there you could use as inspiration? Why have vampires when you can have blood-sucking hummingbird androids that infect their victims with a mysterious plague? When there are so many ideas and possibilities that could be conceived, why repeat and repeat and repeat the same vanishingly small percentage of them ad nauseum?

 

[Banten]

blood-sucking hummingbird androids that infect their victims with a mysterious plague?

Remember that one. Maybe make a cyberpunk story out of it. Put a nice cheesy name on it like "Bloodhacking" "Mechanic Humming" or "Deadly Error" and you will soon make lots of money.

 

[Brian Scott Allen]

Where's my Revolutionary War setting fantasy novel!!

 

[skip.knox]

I don't think people are tired of pseudo-medieval European fantasy at all. Sure, some folks will arbitrarily decide they won't read certain types of fiction. For me, for instance, it's urban vampires. If you write a brilliant urban vampire book, little short of direct intervention will get me to give it an even break. So there's that.

But for the most part, people simply don't like bad writing. What I see is that poor writers, and beginning writers, will imitate more readily and will reach for the familiar more readily than will a skilled writer. So they grab not actual medieval European history but their own stereotypes of it. Same goes for elves and dragons and magic and farm boys. The results are overwhelmingly tone-deaf and ham-handed. But it's not the writers who get the bad rap--they simply get forgotten--it's the trope that gets the rap.

This is hardly peculiar to fantasy. It goes for police procedurals, detective novels, 18thc Scottish romance, and a wagonload of other areas. The genre is not responsible for the sort of people who choose to write it.

 

[ThinkerX]

'Generic European Fantasy.'

Strangely, that is how my primary world originated. Back then, I was into AD&D very heavily. TSR (now 'wizards of the coast,' unless the name changed again) came out with a series of 'historical supplements' for the game, mostly focused on different portions of Europe at different points in history (Rome, ancient Greece, Vikings, Crusades, Celts, and so on.) At about that time, there were also a few 'magical Europe' novels that intrigued me.

I spent a lot of time going over those books, did some additional reading, and began to wonder: maybe I could merge the described settings into a coherent whole? Create a sort of mangled version of Europe where a Charles the Great type figure really did reunite the Roman Empire, replace human realms with nations of elves and dwarves (again, very heavy AD&D influence.) I wrote up notes, did extensive world building...

...then I went on to other projects for a long time, most of them not literary.

When I returned to writing, I chose that setting because it was relatively detailed. It became more detailed as I wrote first 'Labyrinth: Journal' and a series of short stories for 'Iron Pen' and other challenges on this site. It also changed quite a bit from both my original conception and the 'generic European setting.' There are some familiar elements (well, quite a few, get right down to it) but ultimately I took that setting and made it mine.

I combined the 'Rome' and 'Charlemagne's Paladins' handbooks to use as the distant base for Solaria, a sort of revitalized Roman Empire.

The ancient Greece handbook became the foundation for 'Carbone,' the empires artistic/intellectual center. That province barely appears in my stories.

Some of the material - mostly names - in the 'Crusades' book went into the worldbuilding for southern Solaria.

I made some use of the 'Vikings' handbook to create Gotland, a northern realm of fjords, forests, bold seafarers, and dark elves, but again, that realm is mostly an outlier. It's also mostly post Viking era.

'Equitant,' a almost industrialized province, received some inspiration from the last of the handbooks, 'A Mighty Fortress,' describing a sort of arcane 16th-17th century Europe. In my world, this provinces technological marvels have spawned social revolution across the empire, something many of my characters grapple with. (What use armored knights in a world of gunpowder?)

Elves still exist. A large standoffish nation to the north of a realm that vaguely resembles the Roman Empire. Elves appear in few tales; I kept them mostly because I had a few solidly established half-elf characters and because I needed a source for weird things.

Dwarves still exist, but they're basically short people. Some enclaves, often scattered throughout cities. They have reputations as merchants, managers, and fine artisans, but combat - not so much.

Instead of Orcs, I went with Goblins and the 'improved' version, Hobgoblins. I wanted to justify their perpetual antagonism with something beyond 'they're evil,' so I added a biological component, and made them literal aliens. Goblin males outnumber females 100 to 1, hence the males are under great pressure to cull rivals and do grand things to impress the ladies. They're also 'hatched' from leathery eggs, not 'born' in groups of two to two dozen. These groups become 'packs' a key element in their society.

Then I went and added a hefty dose of Lovecraft to the mix, along with other sources.

 

[FifthView]

World building is hard.

But let me backtrack. There are two ways of thinking about world building. One is simply building a world in one's own head, and this seems to be what we focus on when discussing world building. "I'm trying to build a world for my current project." The other is building a world for the reader, i.e. execution.

I suppose that the continual reappearance of medieval European settings may be a result of this. After all these years of those settings, in books and movies and our own attachment to the history of western Europe, coming up with something as basic as the terminology, for instance, is simpler for people. We don't have to explain it to readers. We don't have to explain to our readers what we mean by portcullis or abbey.

Kings, queens, princes, dukes, barons.....I have a story, put on the back burner, that I wanted set in a combo Chinese/SE Asian type of world but that I simultaneously don't wan't to seem as if it's derivative. I wanted it to have a vaguely Chinese/SE Asian feel, but not be those cultures with a thin layer of paint. At the same time, lately I often approach fantasy worlds as if they are exoplanets in our own universe. They've developed peculiar systems of government and terminology for the hierarchy that are not Earth-based. I didn't want to simply borrow terminology from China, for instance. But creating such a system from scratch is harder than simply defaulting to the common titles, methods of address, and so forth from European history.

I'm not arguing for or against the use of medieval Europe as a model. I personally don't mind it whatsoever, and I usually like it. Heck, I liked it in Dune, but I'm not sure I'd call that example an unfortunate consequence of any sort of stasis.

Plus...here's me going out on a limb...From what I've gathered from the presentations others have made (movies, some books, games, some documentaries), it seems as if multiple cultures have passed through similar phases in their history. Medieval Europe had taverns and various lords and ladies, but so did China and Japan. Travel by horse, way stations, walled cities, warfare, sieges, various crafts and craftsmen....Lots of similarity between cultures, even if the terminology/language was different. So I wonder if the complaint centers more around important cultural markers like religion, philosophy, artistic sensibilities, and customs peculiar to different cultures. But what's interesting is that lots of fantasy using what appears to have a medieval European base also happens to include peculiarities in those areas that are fantastic, i.e., not what existed in medieval Europe.

 

[Gurkhal]

I think that the dominance of medieval setting is mostly a set of ease and predecent that leads people to write in Medieval Europe. Both in that in most European countries there are, to my knowledge, lots of available research and facts that can be digested to create the world and inspired a writer, but also that when people read mostly medieval based fiction, we get inspiration, images and the brain starts to work along the lines of Medieval Europe, especially when a genre like fantasy reach back decades with predecent upon predecent upon predecent of using mostly Medieval Europe for the inspiration.

Personally I'm divided. While I accept that I find non-European settings draw me and makes me desire to know more, I also know that when reading more Medieval based fiction I can relate more to their personal struggle as I've digisted enough history and history-based fiction to have a clue about what things are about.

 

[Peat]

People don't write in medieval Europe. They write in medieval north-western European pastiches and that's a big difference. I have zero problems with that but the spade is not a motorbike.

I'd also point out that the majority of works coming out these days are renaissance European pastiches. Even Song of Ice and Fire is "set" in a time period that is call the early renaissance.

I don't think I've read a realistic late Medieval/early Renaissance army in all of fantasy. Very few that want to include a model where the majority of scholarship is by ecclesiastics. Nobody ever wants to reproduce an accurate model of nobility titles. Rampant disease - how many characters have a sibling who died of a childhood disease? And on and on. And again, I don't object. I'd like to think I have a reasonably firm handle on medieval history but I'm not going to produce faithful to the age stuff.

Just pretty much no one else is either.

The average fantasy world owes more to D&D than it does to Medieval History. And D&D has shoved the surface elements of half a dozen interesting parts of mainly medieval European history into a blender with Tolkien's races. Its why so many settings have vikings next to plate-clad knights.

edit:

What i mean by restraints and possibilities is, why use elves and dwarves, trying to put a new spin on them eternally, when you can make up your own fantasy races? Why use medieval Europe as an inspiration when 60% of other fantasy stories do as well and medieval Europe is .01% of the cultures and times out there you could use as inspiration? Why have vampires when you can have blood-sucking hummingbird androids that infect their victims with a mysterious plague? When there are so many ideas and possibilities that could be conceived, why repeat and repeat and repeat the same vanishingly small percentage of them ad nauseum?

Because people like them and people write what they like. There's no reason they shouldn't.

 

[Miskatonic]

You could say the same thing about Manga and Anime having too many "Asian" samurai stories that glorify the Edo Period. Might as well say that Sci-Fi has too many aliens, spaceships and too much advanced technology.

 

[AElisabet]

Honestly, is there really that much actual "Medieval European Fantasy?" Or is it just, (as has been insinuated) "D & D based Fantasy"?

I would really, really love to see more fantasy that either a) takes the mythos of the historical Medieval period and puts a new spin or insight on it (like Catheryn Valente's Dirge for Prester John or ) or b) creates a secondary world that is inspired by a Medieval culture and is rich and well realized beyond just "Swords, Castles, and Kings." There is some of this out there, but I think there is less than people think.

A lot of what gets called "Medieval European Fantasy" is neither of the above.

And there are so many different pre-modern European cultures to draw from, including Eastern and Northern European cultures, when creating a fantasy world.

And why write it? Because it is worth exploring? It is fun and interesting to read? Why write anything?