Commiserate with me...

[Caged Maiden]

Thanks, ThinkerX, I really appreciate that you want to help. Like I said, this is sort of what's causing my problem. You know, I actually didn't open the story here at all, and am only adding this chapter to the rewrite because the book has two inciting incidents, one being the original one, where the MC gets accused of being able to open a magical door, and is kidnapped. And the other one was before the book opened, when she met a bard who beat her in a card game, and later, he's the one who rescues her from her kidnapper.

I just want to add that while I hear you, and I'm not trying to argue anything, I feel like my opening as it stands highlights all the right things (for me and my intentions). The card game is less important than the ability to see auras. Some of this confusion between writer goals and execution questions comes from my ability to explain a scene's goals, I understand, and I have found it's impossible to be clear. Anyways, so she does end up sweating, but first she's displeased with the house and her benefactor (to me, that's important. And anyways, even if I showed her really nervous right in the first paragraph, arguably, no reader would care because they don't know her or connect with her. Just because I showed her sweating and anxious in the first paragraph doesn't mean anyone would care more about that than why she's upset with her benefactor for vetoing her on the flowers...which I actually like). So right after this hand, where she chooses not to call Daveed's bluff, but instead folds and cuts a deal with a friend, negotiating for something she really wants, something that might even set her free from her crime boss. So that's how I'm trying to enter a little danger into this scene. The actual inciting incident of the scene is at the end, where the bard beats her badly and she leaves the table, broke and shamed, and feeling threatened. Now, again, I know my explanations are horrible and i'm about the worst summarizer in the world, but the thing I always wonder is...can I get a proper opinion from people who don't read beyond the opening? Because I'm feeling very much like I get crits on openings over and over, and everyone hates every rendition I can provide (okay, that's an exaggeration, I'd call it more like 70% don't like and 30% do like, but in those 40%, some are readers and not writers). I hope this illustrates my confusion. Honestly, as embarrassing as it is to put myself out there to you all, and expose what an idiot I feel like, I hope this can help someone else, too.

So anyways, the thing is, let's say I rewrote it following your suggestions...what happens when I get three more opinions that say That's the wrong way to open? You have to understand...I've heard over and over that "this doesn't work", or "maybe start later", or a hundred other versions of those. The simple problem is that whatever I do, it isn't "right". No one loves it. See, I loved the opening of The Lies of Locke Lamora, but it really broke some of the sage writing advice. It was omniscient, info-dumpy, and after one short scene, did a flashback. None of that sounds like a good idea. But to me, it hooked me from the beginning. So...with my own story, how can I possibly find the right way to open it, if no one ever likes any of the options? I'm all for hearing constructive criticism, but I'm having one of two problems: either I'm such a weak writer I just can't figure out how to actually execute something well, or I'm missing the larger picture of learning where and when to open.

What I feel like is this:

One critter read this manuscript back in 2011. He suggested I cut the whole first chapter because it's sort of backstory, but it deals with an immediate situation and starts the quest rolling. However, it wasn't told from the MC's POV. So I agreed, it should be cut, but I never found a great solution to solve my bigger problem--the MC will never know any of the things in that chapter, and therefore I worried the story was disconnected. I edited the opening chapter and pushed that though to a few more critters, who all read the opening few chapters and indicated the first chapter was still problematic, because it wasn't the MC's POV. Okay, I knew I had a problem.

Then, I strengthened the first 6 chapters, honing in on the story I wanted to tell, though I left the first chapter pretty much intact. The editing went well, in that I improved on some action and created some more depth, but I also increased words and slowed pacing, so maybe not beneficial in the long run?

Next, I added a couple split scenes, things happening in other parts of the world. Rather than "tell" about the events (as the first chapter had), I "showed" the events happening and then trimmed the conversation that incites the journey. I liked it. Other people had mixed opinions. It went through about 4 more betas.

Last summer, I threw out the old structure of the first chapter, (and basically just threw my hands in the air and threw a hail mary) and mimicked The Lies of Locke Lamora's opening, where the two men meet, they talk, and then interspersed within that one conversation, each of the split scenes takes place. So the whole first chapter was a conversation in person in the present, but interspersed between parts of the conversation, pertinent past split scenes were shown. I gave it to one person and he really thought it was a huge improvement. SO at least I felt I was making progress, because i can't cut the info out entirely, but I can change how I present it.

I recently sent it to another critter, who felt that opening with the conversation (of which my MC isn't a part) detracted from the story, and I agreed. So I followed the advice to rewind in time and show the card game that started the animosity that in the future will lead to a tense relationship between the woman who is kidnapped and the man who she hates, but gets to know after he rescues her.


So, that's where I am. I've rewritten, changed my goals, and generally listened to all the advice folks have given me, and i have to say, I just want to get it "right" but there seems to be no actual finish line here. When I posted the section above, I wanted to show what I mean when I say to me it works great, it's exactly how I like to read stuff, but I can't seem to get anyone else to jump on board and see why I made the choices I did. It's weird how I can spend so much time and thought on something that I stand back and try to look objectively at, and how far off base I feel I'm hitting.

I just don't know which voice to listen to, and the hardest thing to combat, is this feeling that I'm making the right choices, but when other writers read, they're looking for something else. Maybe some feel they'd do it different. Maybe some feel my execution is questionable so they don't trust me to drive the car. Maybe some just hate the style of my writing (detail vs. pacing). I mean, I'm definitely not trying to make excuses, but for all the thought I've given this, I still don't know what's causing the disconnect. I feel like some critters in the past have really just wanted some sort of list to occur in the beginning of the novel--perhaps thinly disguised as dialogue or something--that would basically tell them all the pertinent information up front, so they could instantly decide whether they liked the story and had positive comments, or didn't like the story and would leave negative comments. It felt rushed and insincere at times. (all years ago) That isn't what a reader wants, sometimes. They might want a story that starts in exposition, or be open to POV changes early on to tell a more complete story. I'm not advocating making bad choices, I'm just saying it can be hard to hear writerly opinions sometimes because they can be more a reflection of what the other writer wants, not a measure of whether a reader feels drawn to your character and situation, and is willing to work out the subtle symbolism or whatever...

I'm certainly very interested in continuing to talk about novel opening strategies, because I'm just failing at every turn lately, and it's hard to even want to write right now. But the thing is, I'm not going to get through this if I just keep doing what I've been doing. I'm exhausted from all the caring I've done, and I'm starting to only feel good when I don't think about writing.

It's hard to determine which voice to listen to, because I've long said I need a mentor something fierce in this business. I think I'm looking for a reader who will trust me to drive the car, and chime in when they like or dislike something, not immediately start highlighting everything that doesn't impress on first glance (give a story a chance, rather than expecting it to feel familiar). I mean...that's the standard I was trying to live up to, and at this point, I think I just have to admit to myself i'm not that guy. I'm not that natural talent. I'll never be him. And I'm okay with that. Because I'm this guy. And I have some good stuff to share too, but I need to figure out how to communicate it effectively. How do some stories make it so effortless-looking, and I'm driving myself into an early grave over it?

So anyways, thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I know a lot of folks here are more private than I am, but I've just seriously been on this ride too long to give up now. So I suppose I show my crazy out in public a little, hoping a conversation will not only help me get over the hurdle, but might also help someone else.

You're the best!

 

[Velka]

Yeah, Velka, I hear you. I know there are a bunch of fear voices in my head, and it isn't that I don't see it, but the problem is, I'm striving to be "professional" and so my aim is to write "like professionals" not like myself .... Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'? Is it as good? What makes it good enough? At what point do you know you're doing fine?

Hah! This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend the other day. We both couldn't believe we were adults. Like real bonafide, tax paying, career having, house owning, adults. When I was younger I always thought that adults totally had their shit together; they knew what they were doing and had this whole life thing figured out.

Well... now that I'm in my mid (I guess now late, ) 30s I've found (most) adults still really have no clue what they're doing. Look at me I'm an adult busy adulting over here! I still drink milk out of the carton, only do laundry when I run out of underwear, dump a shoebox of tax stuff at the accountant with a shrug and the opinion that I'm paying them to figure this out, stay up too late playing video games, and eat too much candy.

I'm pretty sure it's the same for many writers. Neil Gaiman talked about still having imposter syndrome, where one day someone with a clipboard would knock on his door and tell him the gig is up and he'd have to go and get a serious desk job.

Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'?

Like Skip.Knox said, perhaps the next step is to pay earth-monies for a real published author editor. You can ask us bumbling fools what we like and don't like about your work all you want, but we're just individual reader voices. Someone whose job is to help get work to the standard that publishers want can probably give much better advice than the peanut gallery.

Also, remember that no published work is perfect. I loved The Lies of Locke Lamora too, but there were structural issues to it (one that pulled me out of the book altogether for a moment), some flimsy character stuff, a few plot holes, etc. Was it a perfect book? Heavens no and if Scott Lynch asked me to beta it I would have tore him a new one pointing all that out. Did I still enjoy it and read the next two books? Hell yes.

Some people not liking some things about your work doesn't mean it sucks as a whole. You can't please them all.

 

[Chessie]

I respect Skip a lot, but an editor is the last thing Anita needs at this time given that she's already struggling with confidence in her work. Someone critiquing her further wouldn't be very helpful from what I'm gathering.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Velka, you are my new hero...shoebox full of receipts indeed! That's me! Except I avoid doing taxes as long as possible, and my husband uses it like I hear other couples use sex. HIM: "Oh, you were at the shelter looking for adoptable dogs again? You know, if you got your taxes done, you could buy a dog." ME: "Nope, I was just dropping off blankets. Which reminds me, I think I forgot to make the bed this morning. I better just pop in there and wash the sheets, too. And let me just grab that vacuum while I'm at it. I saw some dust bunnies..."

Whew...lots to digest today, as I set out to do some grocery shopping. You know the reason I haven't reached out to more "professionals" because I felt I wasn't like them. I don't feel like their peer, so it feels awkward to try to talk as equals. I'll need to give that some thought before I make any sort of move. I would very much like to work with a professional editor, but I need someone who is more a mentor than a hardass right now. I'm not looking for a softy, though, by any means. I gave an editor a shot to wow me and he underwhelmed in the worst possible way, so I chose to not pursue that.

Okay, folks, I have to leave for a bit, but I'll be back this evening. Thanks!!!

 

[ThinkerX]

Caged, what you are going through now sounds a lot like what I went through with 'Labyrinth' (now 'Labyrinth: Journal') a few years ago. First draft went all over the place. Lots of unnecessary fighting. Had a huge amount of 'telling' instead of showing. More, it was supposed to be a 10-15,000 word novelette rather than the 44,000 word novella I initially cranked out.

So, rewrite time. I looked the first draft over and went:

'The core of the story revolves around these points, which are mostly covered in these scenes. Yes, I have lots of great stuff in other scenes, but they're not crucial.'

So I did a sloppy cut and paste. Wrote a few connecting bits. Then I realized...

'well, the story begins in the wrong spot. I need an opening chapter, say 4000 words, to fix that.'

I made something like eight drafts of that opening chapter. The first seven didn't work because there was still too much 'telling.' The story wasn't in the moment. So with the last draft, I began with the 'inciting incident' - something I'd previously 'told' rather than shown - and went from there. That version amounted to a self contained story which I entered into 'Iron Pen' and did pretty good.

It still took three more chapters to reach the starting point of the first draft. And once I got into that, I realized some of what I'd written needed not just a rewrite, but a major expansion. A 'city section' in the middle went from 4000 words to over 15,000.

Now, I did the same thing each step of the way - I looked at a section, and asked myself what had to be done to it to advance some element of plot or characterization or story. Then I went and did it.

My one and only beta reader thus far - who doesn't care for this entire genre - liked the story.

Now, I mentioned cutting a bunch of stuff from the first draft that I liked a great deal. That bugged me. So, some of those scenes, mostly 'telling' in the first draft, are now 'action' scenes in the sequel to that story, 'Labyrinth: Seed.'

 

[Russ]

It's hard to determine which voice to listen to, because I've long said I need a mentor something fierce in this business.

While I empathize with your plight, I won't commiserate with you.

I think the answer to your problem is right there. If you don't trust or have not found your own writing path, you need a mentor you trust to a high degree to help you out. It seems like now is really the time for that for you.

I have seen the process work very well. My wife got two mentors in her field and their kindness in offering criticism and her willingness to embrace that criticism and evolve as a writer led to her work getting far better.

You have lots of words under your belt and an excellent understanding of the craft. I am not sure short answers on a website are going to give you what you need. My advice would be to find yourself a mentor who is willing to committ to you and that you believe it implicitly. Then enjoy the ride.

Some people have mentioned commercially available editors or coaches, who can be very helpful, but I would rate them a second choice over a good mentor.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Um...how might one go about discovering WHO might be a good writing mentor? I'm trying not to sound dumb, but would I be looking for a published writer that I really respect? A fellow amateur who's just further along the process than I am? Or am I looking more for a person who works in publishing (because I know a few who work in small press or want to begin their own small press, but they seem rather unable to do much except tell me they'd publish me if they had a choice, which doesn't really help me get better or more marketable in the eyes of the bigger publishers). Or is it a situation where I could make it known in my query letter, to an agent? That last one seems really like a stretch.

I'm just unsure what kind of person I could approach, though I'm fully confident if I met anyone in person, I could get them to support me (I just have that kinda way about me). Is this something I could do in person at a con? Like, meet writers and form some rapport and just ask?

You're so right, I said this last winter, didn't I? HA! I've been saying it for a long time. I need to really learn what the next step is--how to focus my efforts to make some really intentional decisions, but also make certain I'm executing well. And that's what I'm really struggling with, so very much. Like I know what I want to do...sometimes I stumble on really great results...often, I blindly try, without the confidence that I can create the right effect with my time and effort. So yeah, I really need an experienced voice to help me get out of where I've plateaued, and give me a boost so I can keep climbing.

I SO need that.

And so I think I'm going to stop writing novels right now, go back to organizing my goals and outlines, and I'm going to take up writing personal letters to all the people I'd love to be like or learn from, and at least strike up a few conversations about how one gets to that next level. Yeah. I might get some advice, I might make some friends, I might get told to stop wasting people's time, it's all better than knowing I'm stuck and can't get myself out of the crevasse by doing what I've been doing--either I need to devise a new strategy, or I need to start yelling for help and get over my fear of looking like a fool and sounding like an idiot in the presence of professional writers. I mean...I'm not going to be the dumbest person they've met. I won't have the worst book they've heard about. HA!

Yeah, my friend (an avid reader who confesses to spending $200/ month on Amazon fantasy books) told me to reach out to one of my favorite authors, to just let them know how much their work has inspired my journey, and while I said I would, I really haven't thought about it again, until yesterday, she told me again how much it would mean to another writer to know how much a fan of their work I am. I thought about that, and it struck me that if I were a successful writer, I'd appreciate someone taking the time to write to me. So maybe I need to just get in contact with some of the folks I've talked to over the years: editors, romance writers, those with agents, and those hybrids who are one foot in the water, one out. See what people really did to hone their craft after they felt competent at writing. For me, this is the biggest question...if someone told me that the story should open HERE, and show THIS, I can totally deliver on it, but I'm finding decision-making really challenging because I always question whether the choices I'm making are the ones a professional writer wold make. Like, surely they make mistakes and have regrets...why am I so hung up on it?

 

[Chessie]

Well...

If you really want to know what choice a professional writer would make, then that would be to write. Just write. No matter what. I belong to two online writing groups. One is a Google+ for pulp speed writers and those folks are monsters. My measly 3k a day is child's play to them. Then there's a Facebook group that's for those in Indie publishing. Here's the thing: both of those groups are filled with professional writers who write daily. They don't stop. Stopping means no funds, no rent, no food on their tables. So I would strongly reconsider you not writing novels right now. How else are you supposed to improve your craft if you don't write?

Far as a mentor goes, the Facebook group is led by a very nice scifi author who mentors writers who wish it. If you're interested, I can patch you up with him on FB. But who this mentor of yours ends up being depends on what your goals for publication are. If you want to be traditionally published, then finding someone in that field to mentor you would be better than an Indie.

On a final note, all I can say is that it would do you well to read, read, read. Read what's on the bestseller lists on Amazon. Read obscure fantasy. Read some romance, whatever you like. Read blogs by major authors. Take it all in and let that help you figure out what's next. But please, don't stop writing! Even if it's flash fiction daily, or 350 words zero f*ery as Chuck Wendig says. Something. Because if you stop writing then you lose connection with your goals. Writing is the only way to get ahead in this business. I've heard so many writers say, "oh, I wish I could write a novel but I don't have time" or "it's too hard". Boo hoo. Take an hour of video game time and write! Without the craft, we'll get nowhere. Keep writing because most writers won't make the time for it. They won't struggle through the growing pains like you are. They'll abandon the craft and their dreams because it's simply too hard to sit in a room alone for hours making shit up. If you really want to be a professional writer, then your habits MUST...seriously...MUST be like those already doing this for a living. It doesn't take 8 hrs a day, but whatever it means to sacrifice for your craft is what it'll be for you specifically. Most won't do this. Most will give up. Don't stop writing.

 

[Caged Maiden]

So you think that I should just move on and write new stuff? See, I've tried that before, written new shorts, started new novels, but the negative voices follow. I keep asking myself what will make THIS novel better than the last ones, where I had characters, plot, and all the elements worked out by the end of them. What's going to make this new story one that feels and looks professional, when I don't know what that looks and feels like? That's the question that's burning down walls in my head right now. How can I get better, if I don't know what the next step "better" looks like, because to me, I've done everything (and more) I can do to grasp every concept of being a great writer. I've scrutinized everything. I feel like I can pass almost every checklist of "Dos & Don'ts" out there. I know I can. Because I listened and I wrote every day for years, and I flexed muscles and experimented, and I learned. But now I don't know what the next step is.

My stories feel like they're missing something, despite the time I've invested in learning to be a good writer, and I think part of that was that I was devoting a lot of energy into developing a "serious writer voice" that I've since tried to abandon. That'll take some time, but I don't think it's the main issue I'm having. The main issue I seem to have is that no matter how I choose to do something, I'm having a hard time getting the reader reactions I'm hoping for. Like I said, some people ask for one thing, other people ask for the opposite, and always, there's the story, hanging in the middle, not pleasing anyone. That's really hard to get over when it's been happening for 4 years. I'm tired of it at this point, because I've learned all I can about theory in a basic sense, the only thing left to pursue is that next level up in advanced writing theory--practical experience in professionalism (also called "throwing out the rules and getting shit REALLY done"). Not sure.

I'm just really confused. I just feel really unaware of even where I am in this process anymore. I'm unsure of whether I need to try formulaic writing, simplified plots to rein in my inclination to complicate plots, or just start something new and honestly ditch the dozen novels I've already written. I waffle between "what-ifs" and one month I'll work really hard to outline a new work, or several, and then I realize there's no reason for a new work to somehow be easier to write than others were (unless I specifically plan something to be really easy). Or I'll switch focus and really hit a novel hard, editing without mercy and scrapping everything erroneous--only to have my next round of betas each seemingly ask for opposite things yet again. So then I ditch that edit, thinking I got it wrong again and ought to cleanse my palate. So I try collecting some shorts into categories, thinking about maybe putting together an anthology, but then I don't like some, or some I love but then I wonder how to even categorize them...and I get lost and confused, and side-tracked with new idea.

I'm not being purposefully flighty, I'm much the opposite. I put a lot of energy into one thing at a time, but I feel like a rat in a maze, testing paths and knowing I've come this way before, but there just doesn't seem to actually be an exit...anywhere.

So that's what's really bogging me down. I can write every day, no problem. I can edit. I can outline. I can brainstorm. But I just don't know what I'm aiming at. Am I attempting to get one novel really polished and self-pub it if 6 months of querying yields nothing? Perfect, I can do that. But I don't want to publish before i'm "ready", so maybe I should pursue some shorts for a while, polish some I like and write a few more to fill out a collection, and publish that. I could do that. But is that time well spent, considering how anthologies don't sell well and the nature of my shorts isn't anything like my novels? Might it hurt me in the long run? Some people write bunches of shorts and have them published in magazines. Maybe I should pursue that--learn what types of stories magazines are looking for and just shift my style to be in line with their needs.

I can go so many ways, and I've honestly never felt more capable than I do right now, but I just don't know where to find an answer to why I feel less than professional. Why don't my stories resonate with readers? Or is it just that my readers are writers, and that automatically makes it a more opinionated read and the focus is always going to be more on improvement than reader enjoyment? I just want to know if my books are any good and what to do with them, because loads of folks seem to think I'm a pretty decent writer, but I still only get 30% to say they really liked my story (on the polished ones). What kind of statistic is normal? I mean, the percentage is slightly higher when the writer/ reader is in my genre, but only marginally so.

 

[Chessie]

With the exception of a small, and I mean tiny percentage, I've found that writers who critique my work are ruthless and completely unhelpful. They have an idea of what should go into that piece from their bias. Writers have a hard time turning off the writerly hat and are unable (for the most part in my experience) to read a piece for merely enjoyment. This is the way I give feedback now. Did I enjoy it? Why or why not? I don't focus on "you repeated these words" or "you used too many adverbs, rephrase that" or whatever. So yes, I would strongly suggest that you find readers that are not writers to give you feedback. What you're looking for is this: would this reader buy the book? Why/not?

And I wouldn't self-publish as a last resort. Heck no. It's A LOT of work. What comes along with self pubbing: making/outsourcing your cover, writing the blurb, keywords so you appear in the right categories, standing out in that particular genre, which genre of fantasy will your works go in? Is the story marketable? Are you hitting the right tropes? Are you within the 30 day window to be seen on Amazon? KDP select or not? Wide or not? How should you price? Permafree or not? Should I write in a series? Bla bla bla etc etc. Self publish because you want to and it's the right decision for you, NOT as a last resort. Publishing is an entirely different gig than writing the book. Most books don't sell very well so if you're already feeling down about readers not liking your work....then if it doesn't sell...you might find that crushing. Just saying.

 

[Penpilot]

Hey CM

I've struggled with finding my voice. Don't think I've quite found it yet, but work in progress and all that stuff. I've struggled with doubt and conflicting messages from readers.

Here are some of the conclusions I've come to. Like my voice, these conclusions are a work in progress, but maybe you'll glean something useful from them.

First thing I've decided was to believe in me above all others. This isn't arrogance or dismissing what other's say. But if I get conflicting messages, or have any doubts about what other's are saying. I set those opinions aside and do what my instincts tell me is right.

I may still screw up, but I got to the screw up using my own reasoning, and so I'll understand how I got there and hopefully will have learned a lesson.

If you blindly follow another's advice, ending in success or not, you probably won't learn as much, if anything at all. It's like a parent doing the science project for their kids.

Second, relax. Let the characters speak, and let your words come out naturally. Don't worry if it's passive or not or if you're breaking any of the gazillion "rules" out there.

One of my old writing teachers said part of the reason he wanted us to be writing continuously was to empty ourselves. I didn't understand it at first, but I think I do now. What I think he meant was the more you write, the more you empty yourself of expectations. You empty yourself of what you think your writing should be and it just becomes what it is.

Basically, when you're continuously writing, you run out of BS to coat over things, and once you're out of that, only the naked truth is left.

That truth is your voice. The way you see the world. The way you see and describe certain situations.

The thing is the BS bucket refills quite fast. I often find myself reaching for that BS coated brush, and I have to catch myself and step away.

I took an editing workshop once. Everyone there exchanged manuscripts and we did critiques and stuff. Some of the comments about my manuscript was that it was hard connecting with my characters, the world, and the story. They asked for more background information.

So I gave them the old short story my manuscript was based on and a few fables I wrote for the world. The short story and fables were almost 20yrs old, and didn't think they were very good. The other editors said they had a much easier time connecting with the 20 yr-old material. The said it felt more honest.

That gave me a lot to think about, and I realized I was trying to be good little writer and follow the advice of everything I've ever read, and it turned me into a liar. What I wrote wasn't me. It was this Frankenstein of everything. It's kind of like when you mix the light from every color in the spectrum, you end up with white.

As for writing like a pro, I usually think you're not good enough until you are. For some, that point is when you send something out and someone says, they'd like to give you money for it, and the next thing after that, and the next thing.

TL;DL? Just believe in your words. Make your mistakes, and live with them and learn from them. You've made it when you do, and you're good enough when you are. And there's no way to know except by continually sending your stuff out, new stuff, old stuff and everything in between.

 

[skip.knox]

I agree with Russ. He said mentor, I said editor. I think mentor's the better avenue. If you look for professional editors, you will find some of them offer mentoring services. It costs.

I won't speak for Russ, but I wanted to clarify: I am not suggesting you get yet one more voice to listen to. I'm suggesting you get *only* one voice to listen to, and then to listen to that voice all the way through the submitting to agents phase. It may not be the best voice, but only by getting all the way beyond the finish line are you going to develop the judgment you need. The only way I know to develop confidence is to develop judgment. And yes, it's a risk. You might choose someone who turns out to be all wrong, and you've spent time and money finding that out. I wouldn't even suggest it except for this: you're stuck. So the first order of business is to get unstuck.

Again, I truly feel for you. I hope you regain some traction.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Okay, folks, a small update. I just had one full week where I didn't think about writing being a focus, I didn't read any of my work, and I didn't even try to write anything. I just let my thoughts work themselves out a little (with your help, of course). I take painkillers almost daily, and since I've been feeling relatively stress-free, I stopped taking them this whole last week, and used this time to try to get some perspective as my own self. Not sure if that makes sense, but anyone who relies on drugs to overcome chronic conditions can probably relate to the mood-altering effects that can sometimes make you question whether you even know yourself anymore. Anyhow...so this weekend has been pretty busy (you know, with kids and husband home), but I'm going to spend the beginning of this week really coming up with a few plans (as many as I can think of) and strategies (hopefully a bunch), and I'm going to sort of try to objectively look at what's really going on with my stuck-ness. Is it all worry, or do I have a bigger problem...time to try and figure that out.

So anyways, if I get anywhere with my mental inventory I'm doing, I'll share that with you all (and thanks again for reading my account of my tribulations). I'm also going to form some sort of preliminary list of those persons I wish to contact (not specifically for mentoring, but rather asking advice on where to begin finding the answers to my questions, and perhaps where one can locate experienced writers who wouldn't mind sharing their journey).

Penpilot, you told me to relax, and so has like everyone else on this thread, and wow...I SO WANT TO...but it has become really difficult. I wish I could just stop the worrying and the second-guessing and all of it, but relaxing just doesn't see to be in my nature. So this week, I'm going to actually relax, even if I have to sedate myself to do it. Desperate times, right? So yeah, I feel you guys. I need to stop fear-writing and just get back to stuff that hits me in the feels and might affect other people how it affects me. I gotcha. I can do that. I'm going to start setting small goals that can help me get out of this slump.

I'm going to compile a master list of all my written works (the ones that are typed, I suppose), and detail what sort of state of finishing they're in. After I have that in hand (because right now that list is a bunch of different-colored post-its stuck to my bathroom mirror (luckily it's a HUGE mirror), and that isn't easy to share with you lot. So I'll get that list together, in the event that my inclination is to return to working on something stupid. I might have a couple false starts, but I know I'm willing to either finish editing a novel to get it off my plate, or to begin something new and not look back at old work at this time. But I might need you folks to keep me honest (you know, because it's so tempting to stray from the work you committed to finishing).

See you tomorrow!

 

[Russ]

Um...how might one go about discovering WHO might be a good writing mentor?

I will get back to you with a longer answer but I am going out of town on discoveries this am and don't have to time to share my thoughts on this topic. Just don't want you to think I am ignoring you.

 

[Miskatonic]

Just look at how many copies really popular books sell and compare that to the population of just the US alone. 300+ million people. Assume that half the people that buy it will have a lukewarm to very negative opinion of your book and you should be prepared enough. Some people won't even read a sentence from your book and still bash you. It's just the toxic nature of the internet.

You just have to expect to get slammed by some people, even if your book is incredibly well written. Even the most famous and influential authors of all time are bashed by a certain segment of the population. You'll see tons of comments that are basically summed up as "So and so is overrated and their writing really sucks." Just dismiss that kind of crap because those people are not trying to help you get better and just need a reason to complain.

Unless a reader is offering criticism that they think will help improve the quality of the stories, ignore them.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Right, I've seen this thread, but haven't really wanted to get into the discussion. I'm not sure how much I could really contribute.

Eventually though...
I read the first post, and skimmed the rest. I'm not sure I can fully relate, as I haven't been in this situation myself - at least not when it comes to writing. But who knows, it might be my turn further down the line.

Now, after reading your first post CM, what stands out to me is that it feels like you have this idea of what writing and being a writer is supposed to be like, but your experience doesn't match that. Could that be the case, or am I completely wrong here.

In a couple of places you mention you have a hard time figuring out what your goal is. From what I gather (from past experience) your goal is something along the lines of: get traditionally published, get acknowledged as a quality author, and make a living off of writing. It's not a bad goal, but I'm not sure having a goal is the issue.

I'm going to be a bit hippy-fluffy here, but I don't think it's the goal that's the issue. I think there's some kind of disconnect between your vision for what you want to do, and what you're actually doing. Or maybe the disconnect is between the stories and your vision for them?
Are you writing your stories the way you do because that's the way they want to be written, or are you trying to make them match some kind of criteria to fit your idea of what they ought to be?

I can't escape this feeling that you're trying to do something that doesn't come naturally to you, and that you're doing it because you believe that it's the way it's meant to be - even though that may not necessarily be the case.
I could of course be wrong, or it could be that I'm just repeating what you're saying, but with different words.

So what I'm getting at is that I think you may be approaching the issue from the wrong angle. You're asking what's wrong with my writing and how can I get better? Maybe you should ask what is writing to me, and what do I want it to be like?

I wish you the best of luck with figuring this out. At this stage, and after this long, being a writer is a big part of who you are, and losing touch with that or disconnecting from it, is probably a really difficult experience.



---

As an unrelated aside. You really helped me out when I just got started. You showed me the ropes, taught me the basics, and encouraged me to get going. I wouldn't be the writer I am today without your support. Thank you.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Thank you Svrt. I appreciate you reading the thread, and would encourage you (if you want to know more about the struggle I'm facing) to read the follow-up posts, as I have a tendency to attempt to simplify an issue into one post, but find that in rambling, I gain more clarity. Often it takes me more than 10k characters to fully express myself HA!

I began writing to entertain myself, with no intent to ever publish. Then I began trading and critiquing in 2011, and since, I've been on the warpath to overcome my "weaknesses" and actually write like a "real" author.

I have no goal to make money writing or have a career as a best-selling author or anything so lofty. My goals are internal and personal, if I'm being honest. Rather than hearing the world confirm anything about my abilities or validate I've got what it takes, my goal is simple: I want to feel like I've learned how to rivet a reader and offer an enjoyable story, regardless of whether I ever make any money or have any amount of recognizable "success".

I'm not sure whether that makes sense. Basically, I want to write, and I don't want to embarrass myself by putting my work out there. The problem with that goal, is that it has no measure. I'm totally fine with writing my books, editing them until I'm proud, and whether anyone buys them or not, I want to put them out into the world because I feel the deeper messages of what I'm writing speaks loudly about who I am as a person, how the human condition is something we all experience differently, and that none of us are alone in our living and suffering (whatever our actual life experiences).

I want something to show for the time I've spent learning how to write. But right now, I feel I have nothing to show for my efforts and the love I've poured into my work, because the quality is still not ultimately "professional".

While I enjoy talking with my fellow Scribes about the craft, honing our skills together and overcoming the challenges of creating characters and stories that evoke feelings in a reader, I found that I'm not personally fulfilled in just getting halfway "there", and want to continue to grow as an individual who feels very passionately about learning a skill to get the best I can be at it.

When I started sewing, I only wanted to make some dresses for myself, to wear and enjoy, much like my stories were in the beginning. But now when I sew, I do so for clients who want something amazing and awesome, and I'm proud when I can deliver a garment that makes the client feel special to wear the things I've crafted for them. That's how writing is for me, but it isn't as easy as making a custom-tailored fencing doublet or a gorgeous gown for a lady who never felt like she had a dress that really "fit" her and made her feel special. Perhaps it's that, that has tainted my experience, because a book is never going to be tailored to a specific reader the way a garment is made to the exact specifications of a body. The mind is a harder thing to fit, in that way, and just as any single dress or doublet won't hit a home run for a hundred individuals, a book is expected to appeal to an audience, rather than an individual. And so, while my stories certainly speak loudly to me, I've been attempting to overcome my individual "wants" and try to ascertain what might make my stories appeal to a wider audience and make them all feel special. And that's really daunting.

I can write stories that inspire me and make me beam when I read the cute bits, or feel a pang of sadness when someone dies, but I have no ability to determine whether I'm even touching a reader as I touch myself...that didn't come out right...but I hope you know what i mean. HA!

My goal is to begin writing things I feel I could publish if I want to, and I think I very much want to take that next step, and make a serious attempt at querying, but I just don't have any confidence I'm where I need to be to do so. I'm desperately searching for the finish line, but I don't even know where it is or what it looks like. So it leads to confusion.

I've had over a hundred critiques, and the only thing I'm taking away from them at this point, is that there are always problems I can't fix, because no matter how sound the advice I'm receiving, I'm still falling short of pleasing people. I mentioned percentages in a previous post, but I'm unclear about what level of "satisfaction" I should be receiving before I allow myself to feel I've reached my goal. As of right now, I feel like getting readers to respond positively to my work is a carrot that's endlessly out of my reach, no matter how hard I push, and no matter which direction I turn.

Until about 18 months ago, I'd never read anything like what I was trying to accomplish. Nothing even close to what kind of story I wanted to write, and I didn't have a clear picture of what I was shooting for as an end goal. Then I read The Lies of Locke Lamora, and a light went on. And not a little bulb in a lonely room, but the freaking bat signal, blaring in the sky in a way I couldn't ignore. HERE was a book that fully captured the tone I wanted to achieve, a balance between modern and historical-feeling fantasy, and a "type" of character that I'd always felt exemplified my own personal tastes (gray morality, personal struggle, non-epic plots in which the world s not in danger, but characters and their goals are the main objective).

After seeing the perfect example of everything I'd been working toward, I was renewed in my own drive and passion. I threw myself back into my work, feeling much more justified in making the decisions I'd been making.

Recently, the "Serious Writer Voice" conversation opened my eyes to the fact that for the last few years, I'd been editing out my own "voice" because I thought it was weak and stupid, while I simultaneously told my critique partners how much I loved their "voices" in their stories. I felt my choices were lame, but their's were inspiring. And so, I again had to reassess what I was aiming for. Was my goal to please myself with the kind of story I love, or was I trying to please readers? Again, back to the dress...was I making a fine Elizabethan gown that anyone would want to wear, or was I crafting a plain Medieval dress that could be laced to fit many body styles, but because of its lack of commitment, was rather plain in appearance? It was the second. I had taken away anything unique in my writing, and dumbed it down and whitewashed it into bland colorlessness, in my attempt to be non-polarizing and therefore (I thought) appealing to a wider audience. HOW WRONG I WAS!

Now, as I try to regain my own individuality, I look back at all the wasted hours editing and cutting, I want to be clear about my goals as I look to the future. The nagging negativity in my own head has me spinning my wheels something fierce lately, because I feel there is no way I can see to feel validated for anything I've done. I've gotten high praise for a few short stories (which I consider very easy to write), but no one's really liked any of my novels. There are pacing issues, plot issues, and character issues, that despite every honest attempt on my part, have failed to hit the mark even after repeated changes per advice.

The thing I'm struggling with is knowing whether i'm on the right track to actually writing like a professional, or whether i'm stagnated because of something I'm doing wrong.

And I don't see any way to answer that question. That's why I asked my fellow scribes, who have a wide range of experiences, whether they had any advice to give on this matter.

I'm desperate to know whether I'm emotionally impacting readers. Whether my stories are worthwhile. Whether I have what it takes. Whether I need help, and what kind of help I need. If my stories are pretty good but need an editor's touch, then are they good enough to query now? Or do I need more rounds of revision before an agent will ever say yes to me? It's just SO hard for me to even try to sort out these answers, and in my confusion, I'm plateaued, because I'm hesitant to spend any more time on revising when it will only yield more lukewarm reactions from my patient and awesome betas. I'm trying to please them, sure, but also potentially, readers. And so my judgement is all kinds of off kilter at this point. I just don't know how I can figure out whether I'm almost there, there already but need to rely on professionals in the business to get me the rest of the way there (as writers do with editors and agents), or whether I've still got years of learning ahead of me before I should even think about pulling the trigger and seriously query or self-publish.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Continued...

Thanks for sharing my journey, everyone. I've always tried to be an authentic voice on this forum, no matter what subject we're discussing. For me, this thread is my way of reaching out to a community I respect and from which I derive a lot of fellowship and support. If I had any answers, I'd gladly share them with other folks, but i'm hopelessly lost right now, and I just want to know WHAT I should be doing to further myself as a writer and pursue the kinds of goals that will give me the validation I need to reinvigorate myself. I mean, I can finish this edit. I can write a short story a week. I can write ten more novels. But if that time and work won't lead to feeling like I've accomplished something, I might as well just put down my pen and put documents on a hard drive, and forget this whole thing, because it's becoming unhealthy to write and write and write, only to be told, "Yeah, this doesn't really work because you need to do this..." and then when I do that thing, I get the same response, but for another issue, and then another, and then more. I just want a loud voice to say, "Yeah, this is really good. I cried when he died, and I really felt I could relate to her situation." Or whatever. To feel like something I'm doing is worthwhile, though I fully understand i'll never 100% connect with any reader, and there will always be things that could be "better for some people. I just want to feel in myself like I accomplished what I set out to do, whether that thing was my subtle novel that will expectedly miss the mark for a lot of readers, or my light-hearted stories that won't really be everyone's cup of tea. I have such a wide range of what I can do, I'm having a hard time tailoring these stories to be true to themselves (and mea as a writer) because I'm overly concerned with making them all bland dresses with mass appeal, and I'm starting to realize that in doing that, i'm just disappointing everyone. And mostly, myself.

I've gotten some really eye-opening feedback in the last year. I gave a good friend a novel that's been problematic for a while, and he read it in the middle of a revision that honestly had transformed it into a shambling zombie-story of monstrous horribleness. He was kind in saying it had "problems" and I was well aware of them, as I'd been ready to pull the plug on that particular story for a while. Anyways, one of the things that meant the most to me, was that in the middle of reading the grotesque mess, he wrote me a long and thoughtful email one day. He told me about how smack dab in the middle of the book, there was a scene (that other betas have responded well to and lukewarm to but no one's stated they hate it) that really affected him. He said by all logic, it shouldn't work, but somehow it really struck him in a way that wowed him. I responded to the email with thanks and it paved the way for a new realization (which I covered thoroughly in the Serous Writer Voice thread). Basically, I responded to him that it was a scene I loved and hadn't really edited except for the surface issues of grammar and word choice. Here was a scene that broke rules, stepped way outside the box of what a typical fight scene feels and flows like, and yet I got repeated praise for how readers responded to it. HUH? What happened there?

So I analyzed it for a time (not the scene, but my thinking regarding it and why I was so attached to it despite early readers telling me it broke rules and therefore ought to be changed). I came to accept that the thing that made the passage so different in contrast to what led up to it, was that I loved it too much to whitewash it until it was plain and ordinary and expected. Hm...interesting. So you're telling me that maybe vanilla-ing my stories isn't having the impact that leaving my own voice and vision alone has? WOW! And since then, I've been looking at all the ways I've deviated from my own mind (which I feel is chaotic and therefore undesirable) and my own voice (which I feel is lame and childish at times, and overly-contemplative at others...not a great mix), and how those deviations have perhaps been huge mistakes.

When I write short stories for challenges, I can't really edit them. I write them fast. I basically read the prompts, allow for a bunch of initial knee-jerk reactions and impulses to flood my mind with images and feelings, and then I set fingers to keyboard and just write. NO planning, no direction. As soon as I get on a roll, I make a small plan, at least an ending, and let the words just flow in whichever direction my emotions and whatever logic I possess takes me. And the thing is, not all my shorts are things I'd like shown in public, a lot of them are things I'm kinda proud of. They've gotten some good feedback, and the ones that were just garbage, I didn't feel were any sort of loss, because I'd learned and experimented, and I'm fine with that. But the middle of the road ones, I've gotten some great critique on by people on this site and elsewhere, and that's helped me to practice my skills little by little, on specific things, because shorts tend to have an individualized style (mores than my novels), and that makes them easier to edit.

So, my shorts have received kinda high praise (mostly unexpectedly...in fact ALL unexpectedly), and my novels have failed to satisfy REPEATEDLY. So what i'm trying to determine is whether my problem is pacing and plotting of novels (a really big thing because people's commitment to a short is a couple hours, but their commitment to a novel must be a couple days), or whether the real issue I'm having is that I can create a unique voice and a stark character lens and tone in the short story, but take a different perspective in a novel because I worry the voice will be grating over the course of a longer work if it's very unique or "strong" in its conviction. For example, my Clichea entry is one I personally love, and I wouldn't change a thing about the character or its voice. But I couldn't consider writing a novel of that character, because I think it would be tedious to read for any length of time.

Oh dilemmas. What is going wrong? HA!

 

[Chessie]

So...is the question: "why don't any of my readers like my stories?"

Perhaps the answer is that you're asking the wrong people to read your work. One important aspect of this entire writing/publishing gig is that we need to know what audience we're trying to reach. YA? NA? Adult nerds who play Pathfinder? Have you asked yourself who your potential audience is? Because that might steer you in the right direction. If you're constantly having your work read by people who wouldn't buy your book anyway, then hell, no wonder you're feeling as if no one likes your work.

I've only read a little bit of what you write so I'm not sure I can help you with this question. Suggestion: get on Goodreads and find books that match what you write. Jot them down on a list. Head to Amazon, look up those books, then read a few of the reviews (1-5 **). Look up the profiles of those readers, see what they liked about the book or what pissed them off. From there you make an estimate of the kind of person who reads books similar to what you write. This'll help you get an idea of perhaps WHO you should be asking for feedback and WHO you should have in mind when writing your books.

On a final note, Chris Fox who once upon a time roamed these forums wrote this fantastic book: Write To Market. It'll change your writing life. I'm suspecting that you may not be hitting reader expectations in the way that you like and that would just take a tweak in education. The book talks about genre tropes and how to write with reader expectation for those genres in mind. Maybe you coud give it a looksie. I know you'll get over this hurdle and not quit. You've come too far to do that, right?

 

[Svrtnsse]

Right, I've had a closer look though the thread and I think I have a slightly better understanding now. I still don't have any solutions, but I think I get it a little bit more now.

Rather than giving advice, I'll share what happened with me after the Serious Writer Voice thread. I don't recall taking much part in it, but I read some of it, and I read some of the blog posts linked. I think I also discussed it in the Recharge thread at some point.

Before that, I'd experimented a little with voice in my previous story, and then after I saw the thread I decided to go all out crazy and see what happened.

Like, wing it. See what works. Test things. Experiment.
It was good fun, but it didn't quite work - not as planned. The experimental voice strayed too far from safety. It got lost and confused and hard to follow. Irrational. Silly. Confusing. Bad.
So I reined it in, brought it closer to home and put it on a leash. A long leash, but a leash all the same. It could still roam far and wide, but always within sight. Safe.
That worked. By going all out and breaking my boundaries I could pull back to where I felt comfortable. Sure, I'd withdrawn from the furthest reaches of the wilderness, but I was still far from the safety of the village square, and I really enjoyed that.

Above section deliberately exaggerated to make a point.

- - -

I also noticed you made some comments about outlining, and about how if you get too detailed with it you start to feel like you might as well just write the story itself instead (quoting from memory, it's a long thread). I don't agree with this.
I've probably mentioned this before several times, but I use really detailed outlines. One way of thinking about it is to try and see it as a coloring book.
I outline until I have all of the contours, and then the first draft is just filling in the colors - adding all the pretty words that put the scene to life.
When doing this I sometimes end up writing entire conversations as part of the outline. It's just a good way for me to get a feel for the scene and what happens in it. And then in the end I change the entire conversation anyway, but that's fine. It's how I roll - as they say.

- - -

I'm still not sure if the above is really helpful. The idea isn't really to give you suggestions for things to do, but to plant the seeds of ideas for things to try. Maybe something will come of it. I hope it will.