Are orcs over used?

[WooHooMan]

I just.... always have to wonder if the Tolkien books I've read are the same as the ones everyone else has. I suppose the problem is that most people who have read LOTR haven't read The Silmarillion. But honestly, "uniformly pretty" and "prissy"? I just don't know where people get that impression from, unless it's the movies. (Curse Peter Jackson!) Elves are not "favored" by God over Men, though probably over Dwarves. Both Elves and Men are the "Children of Illuvatar". They are different, but neither is meant to be "better" than the other. People tend to view the "immortality" of the Elves as making them "better" but that isn't the case. In fact, mortality is called the "Gift of Men". And it was the envy of that immortality among certain Men that led to much death and suffering and the destruction of Numenor.

And orcs are not the "polar opposite" of Elves. They are a corruption of Elves and Men on an essential level. That is part of the terror of Sauron. Those armies of orcs and half-orcs are the future for any people that falls under his dominion.

I have read the Silmarillion. Or rather, I've read the "History of Middle-Earth" set. Even casual Tolkien readers probably know that Tolkien's Elves weren't all prissy or how Orcs are corrupted Elves/Men.

I was talking about the average person's perception of Elves and Orcs - be they Tolkien-created or Tolkien-influenced. I could have just as easily been talking about the races of Dungeon & Dragons or whatever. I was trying to keep it broad.

What I was trying to get across is that Orcs are the "bad guys" and sometimes people like rooting for the bad guys.
Elves, on the other hand, are the "good guys". As such, you can see Orcs as an opposite to Elves. In Middle-Earth, Orcs also happen to be an opposite to Men and Dwarves. I just used Elves in my explanation because portrayals of Elves in fiction tend to be as formulaic (for lack of a better word) as portrayals of Orcs. And the formula for Elves tend to be "pretty and prissy".

 

[SeverinR]

My orcs are the Klingons of fantasy. They are a war tribe, only the strongest leads, but that doesn't mean they are stupid.
But if they were overly inteligent they would be more of a threat to civilized society. Part of their weakness is distrust of other bands of orcs, so banding a group of orcs together would be tough and very limited.
Remember the toughest are looking to move up in ranks, they don't want to compete with another tribe of orcs to do so.

The nomad nature and continued fighting to gain rank limits the power of the orcs. My orcs are the Vikings and nomad indians of history. They depend on raiding and pillaging to survive. War wounds add up and conituous moving is hard on the babies.
They are very smart in the martial arts. Thus they are not stupid enough to trust their lives to a rusty sword.

 

[Bearman1]

Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them.

So i would say if you are going to use orcs in your novel try and make them a fearful force. Just an idea to make them a bit refreshing

 

[Mythopoet]

Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary.

For what it's worth, I was terrified during the "drums, drums in the deep" part of LOTR when I first read it.

 

[Jabrosky]

Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them.

Funny you say that, for I always imagined orcs as physically bigger and stronger than humans. I don't base this image off any existing mythos like Tolkien or Warcraft, but instead figured that a race of fierce barbarian warriors would need an advantage in brute strength to compensate for their more primitive technology.

Now that I think about it, if orcs are indeed formidable warriors in their own right, might certain nations find them handy as mercenaries? The Romans would hire Northern European tribesmen for that purpose, just as the Egyptians before them hired Sea People and the Sudanese Medjay. I recall the orcs in Stan Nicholls' books are almost like mercenaries for the villain, but it would be interesting to see orcish mercenaries working for the stereotypically "nobler" races.

 

[WooHooMan]

Funny you say that, for I always imagined orcs as physically bigger and stronger than humans. I don't base this image off any existing mythos like Tolkien or Warcraft, but instead figured that a race of fierce barbarian warriors would need an advantage in brute strength to compensate for their more primitive technology.

Now that I think about it, if orcs are indeed formidable warriors in their own right, might certain nations find them handy as mercenaries? The Romans would hire Northern European tribesmen for that purpose, just as the Egyptians before them hired Sea People and the Sudanese Medjay. I recall the orcs in Stan Nicholls' books are almost like mercenaries for the villain, but it would be interesting to see orcish mercenaries working for the stereotypically "nobler" races.

I think this was the thought process of the Elder Scrolls' orcs.
They're an interesting case: they started-out as Elves, were "cursed" and turned into traditional orc-monsters, then became a respectable and well-integrated warrior race because the Roman-esque Empire was impressed with their martial prowess. Now, despite their traditionalist/barbaric attitude, they're one of the most well-integrated races in the setting.

While we're on the subject of big, tough orcs: does anyone see a difference between orcs and ogres?
As far as I can tell, Tolkien invented the word "orc" as a fictional root word for ogre so I kind of wonder if you can call them either or and have it not make any difference in how the audience sees them.

 

[ThinkerX]

Something I would like to see in a story are orcs that are genuinely scary. Almost all books I have read the orcs are fairly useless, only posing a threat in large numbers or against characters who cannot defend themselves. Considering most orc cultures are centred around fighting and war I find it frustrating that the heroes normally easily defeat them.

So i would say if you are going to use orcs in your novel try and make them a fearful force. Just an idea to make them a bit refreshing

I have something like this going in my world, though its goblins and hobgoblins rather than orcs (I decided orcs were too closely linked to Tolkien and AD&D).

The goblins of my world(s) are short, fairly wimpy creatures. Put a normal human up against a normal goblin, same weapons and armor, and there's a better than even chance the human will win. Goblins are mostly sneaks and scavengers. In larger groups...well...'organized mob' or 'well drilled militia' about sums it up.

Hobgoblins, though, are much bigger, tougher, and stronger than goblins...and most humans. Match an ordinary hobgoblin against an ordinary human, same weapons and armor, and odds are the hobgoblin will come out on top. Plus their military units tend to be very well trained and organized, comparable to the old roman legions.

My Toki / Hock-Nar stories (appearing mostly in the 'Iron Pen' Challenges in the 'Challenge' sub-forum) chronicle some of the exploits of a petty human mage soul bound to a hobgoblin warrior.

 

[George Lightgood]

Personally, I think they are overused in respect to being the bad guys...

I agree. Orcs have been around a long time, obviously playing fundamental roles in Tolkien's work, if not before. It seems that they have become a cliché stock character much like the hard-boiled and world weary detective or the hooker with the heart of gold or the Russian spy. Of course, one could make the same argument about vampires, for example.

Any of them, though, redone with enough imagination or a unique twist can render an old thing new again. The writing style and skill level notwithstanding, Twilight is an example of a unique twist on a very worn out cliche character. Wait a minute...what about an Orc in love, with a vampire, in a high school in Nebraska?

 

[WooHooMan]

I have something like this going in my world, though its goblins and hobgoblins rather than orcs (I decided orcs were too closely linked to Tolkien and AD&D).

The goblins of my world(s) are short, fairly wimpy creatures. Put a normal human up against a normal goblin, same weapons and armor, and there's a better than even chance the human will win. Goblins are mostly sneaks and scavengers. In larger groups...well...'organized mob' or 'well drilled militia' about sums it up.

Hobgoblins, though, are much bigger, tougher, and stronger than goblins...and most humans. Match an ordinary hobgoblin against an ordinary human, same weapons and armor, and odds are the hobgoblin will come out on top. Plus their military units tend to be very well trained and organized, comparable to the old roman legions.

I think that's a pretty cool idea. Gives a little diversity to the race. I actually think the Troll-Ogre-Orc-Goblin-Hobgoblin race family is an interesting convention of fantasy that more writers should try exploring.
In fact, I'm doing something similar but with ogres and goblins. In that setting, Ogres and Goblins are sometimes collectively called "Orcs". Hobgoblins are also there but they don't usually count since they have their own culture.

Also, did you know that the prefix "hob" generally denotes smallness. Hence "Hobbit". In mythology, Hobgoblins were always depicted as tiny, even compared to Goblins. I'm not saying it's wrong that they're portrayed as taller in modern fantasy; I just think it's interesting how the defining characteristic of a Hobgoblin has completely changed.
I think it just goes to show the roots of a fantasy race (be they folklore or a single writer) doesn't matter as much as how people use them.

what about an Orc in love, with a vampire, in a high school in Nebraska?

I'd read it

 

[Warrioress]

I think orcs can be over used especially if they are the MAIN foe in a story as in my opinion that had already been done in LOTR.
If they are used sparingly i think they can be effective.