Reader vs Beta Reader and Preconceived Notions About Nobility

[Guru Coyote]

In regards to the danger of persuit changing any opinions, I agree with what Steerpike said. You addressed it as conflict in the story, and that's good then.

Looking forward to the post on the Unified Field Theory of Writing.

 

[BWFoster78]

In regards to the danger of persuit changing any opinions, I agree with what Steerpike said. You addressed it as conflict in the story, and that's good then.

Looking forward to the post on the Unified Field Theory of Writing.

Glad to hear it. Thanks again for replying.

 

[Penpilot]

1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning. My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense. I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:

If I show the characters stopping at this town and mention that this is simply what they do, how much explanation do I really need? As a reader, would you question this?

If as Steerpike said, you address the pursuit, I don't see any problem. Since stopping is a custom, I think it's a perfect spot to drop in a little or a lot of backstory on it, depending on what you think works best. It'll help fill in the frame work of the world in which you're working. If the reader doesn't have that frame work, they're just assuming things cold and what they assume won't always be right.

2. This example is the more relevant of the two. I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father. I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.

My beta reader take two great exceptions:

a. He feels that it is GREATLY against expectations for the marquess to be able to issue commands in her father's name.

b. He feels that is GREATLY against expectations for the noble to send the daughter without a great deal of written assurances and word from the duke himself.

Well, this is almost the same question as the first. If you do the ground work and set up and explain the rules of the world so that the daughter has such power then I don't see any problem with it. It's all in the set up. If you get it across to the reader that this is a reasonable way to operate, which IMHO is entirely plausible, then the reader will accept it.

I'm reading A Game of Thrones right now, and I've never heard of the role of The Kings Hand before. And if I were going by the title alone, I could reasonably assume the person could be a complete lackey or someone with great power, depending on how things are set up.

 

[Graylorne]

If you don't have votes enough... I see no problem in them stopping and sprucing up. Actually, I use the same situation in my first book, have them change into court clothes behind some hedges outside town, because my MC refuses to appear at the court of the local count as some sort of a beggar.

Second, how much authority the daughter of a duke has, is a matter between her and her father. I see no reason why she couldn't give orders as her father's deputy or in her own name. Princes have done these things for centuries and if your world has more equality between the sexes, it's logical this goes for Princesses as well. Even in a power play situation, e.g. father against daughter, it wouldn't be inconceivable. The only detail I want to point out (I am a stickler for correct titles after all) is that Marquess is a male title. The lady is a Marchioness, or if you want to go French, a Marquise.

 

[BWFoster78]

If you don't have votes enough... I see no problem in them stopping and sprucing up. Actually, I use the same situation in my first book, have them change into court clothes behind some hedges outside town, because my MC refuses to appear at the court of the local count as some sort of a beggar.

Second, how much authority the daughter of a duke has, is a matter between her and her father. I see no reason why she couldn't give orders as her father's deputy or in her own name. Princes have done these things for centuries and if your world has more equality between the sexes, it's logical this goes for Princesses as well. Even in a power play situation, e.g. father against daughter, it wouldn't be inconceivable. The only detail I want to point out (I am a stickler for correct titles after all) is that Marquess is a male title. The lady is a Marchioness, or if you want to go French, a Marquise.

Okay. I'll do some more research.

Edit: Okay, you're right, but I don't like the term marchioness. I also don't like going with the French version or referring to a duke's son as a marquess, as it sounds odd.

Hmmm. I'll have to rethink the title.

 

[Graylorne]

You can ofc use the (older) continental version of Margravine, what is more a medieval title.
But there are still plenty duke's sons who are marquesses, so it's completely normal even if it sounds a bit odd.

 

[BWFoster78]

You can ofc use the (older) continental version of Margravine, what is more a medieval title.
But there are still plenty duke's sons who are marquesses, so it's completely normal even if it sounds a bit odd.

I was really looking for a term that specifically meant: son/daughter of the duke/duchess who will inherit rule when said duke/duchess dies. Marquess appears to be a generic name for a class of noble between a duke and a (?) count.

I like Jordan's daughter-heir but don't want to steal it.

Any ideas?

 

[srcroft]

I like daughter-heir, sounds unique XD. Hmm, well theirs Heiress, Noble-Heir, Heiress of Nobility, Noble Successor, Noble-Scion, Fated-Scion, Blood Successor, Blood Heir. Just a few to throw out there.

 

[Graylorne]

Well, officially she'd be heiress-apparent, or else hereditary princess, only that's rather a mouthful.

If your duke is a sovereign ruler, there's no problem with calling her Crown Princess.

You can also make a title for her. In my books is an independent duchy called Vavaun. It's in a Balkanese (is that a word?) style. The duke is the Valvode, his dughter, who is the eldest of triplets, the Valvodjara. Both are variations on the original title of Wojwode. Or like the Romans, with Caesar for the father and Augusta for the daughter (not entirely accurate, but it could serve).

 

[srcroft]

Hmm what about Heiress-to-be, I also like heiress-apparent like you said, it has a nice flow to it. Crown Princess would confuse me, I would think Royal family above Duke/Dutch/Lord/Lady.

 

[Butterfly]

Lady-heir? Duchess apparent?

 

[srcroft]

Ok I definitely got the winner: "The cute girl who will one day take my place, money, and title, but only when I die, and certainly not if she kills me, apparent."

 

[BWFoster78]

Ok I definitely got the winner: "The cute girl who will one day take my place, money, and title, but only when I die, and certainly not if she kills me, apparent."

I like this best so far. How about the tcgwwodtmpmatbowidacniskma for short?

Edit: that was just in jest, but maybe the "niskma" would work. I'd laugh every time I used it.

 

[srcroft]

HAHA thats funny. If you use it I want 10%. j/k. Niskma sounds pretty cool for a character or tribe/people name

 

[BWFoster78]

HAHA thats funny. If you use it I want 10%. j/k. Niskma sounds pretty cool for a character or tribe/people name

What would the male version be? Niskme?

 

[srcroft]

Nihkmo technically but I like Niskmo.

 

[J.D. Hallowell]

Any time you use titles or other technical terms in ways that differ from their ordinary use, you run the risk that your readers will carry their existing knowledge and expectations about these terms into their reading of your story, and the differences will cause problems for believability or ease of immersion in the tale.

I would say that deviations from the usual use of terms should be noted or explained in some way within the thread of the story so that readers have a grasp of what they should expect to see in your story in relation to the term and understand precisely what your use of the term means.

 

[BWFoster78]

Nihkmo technically but I like Niskmo.

I do too. Done.

 

[BWFoster78]

Any time you use titles or other technical terms in ways that differ from their ordinary use, you run the risk that your readers will carry their existing knowledge and expectations about these terms into their reading of your story, and the differences will cause problems for believability or ease of immersion in the tale.

I would say that deviations from the usual use of terms should be noted or explained in some way within the thread of the story so that readers have a grasp of what they should expect to see in your story in relation to the term and understand precisely what your use of the term means.

JD,

Thanks for the response, but I'm not sure I completely agree with you.

On one hand, yes. Using a term definitely brings up certain connotations in the reader's mind. However, I think that the readers keep those expectations pretty maleable when reading fantasy.

In my mind, it's like how I develop a character. I introduce the protagonist and give some minor details about him: his age, occupation, etc. I can't keep the reader from projecting some preconceptions based on this information. However, as I show more and more of his actions, the way that I want him perceived replaces any assumptions they made.

It's woefully bad craft to present the character all at once: Xan is sixteen and an apothecary apprentice. He's a bit arrogant but is really lonely and sensitive. Now, on with the story.

Instead, I reveal a little at a time, and the reader goes along with me.

Same thing with the functioning of my society. Regardless of their preconceived notions, my society is defined by the way I show it working. I don't think that most readers have a problem with it. I also don't think that the preconceived notions of most readers are as strongly held as those of this particular beta reader.

Thanks again for the comment.

 

[Butterfly]

mmm.... A rose by any other name... is still a rose...

if you get what I mean.