Why YA?

[Devouring Wolf]

I love first person. That is, I love writing it. I like the intimacy, and my characters/narrators are snarky and sarcastic, so it can be pretty fun as well. I don't have any preference when reading.

Just in the interest of making conversation, can you explain why you don't like first person? I've heard that sentiment expressed on here many times and I'm wondering why. In a good story I don't even notice the narration.

Well I also don't like first person and I'm bored right now so I'll try to explain my feeling on it. Interestingly enough my favorite book (Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock) is written in first person but its a bit of an anomaly. For me first person usually breaks immersion. The only way I can stand it is if the story is written in some sort of diary/ log format or if its a story within a story and the character is telling the story to another character. Otherwise I'm always thinking how am I in this character's head? How could they notice something like that? Instead of making the character feel more real to me it feels less real. With third person narration, you get the feeling someone is telling you the story. In first person it often feels as if someone is telling the story to you as it is happening which is kind of impossible. the only way I find it believable is if I get the distinct feeling the story being told already happened.

I don't mind writing first person, but I usually prefer third. When I do write first its always as someone looking back and telling the story from some future point in time. I guess I also don't like the fact it limits the number of plausible POV's to one for me. I can't buy into multiple first person POV stories unless there's an explicit reason (like stories written as a series of letters for example) because it breaks my suspension of disbelief. I always question how the story is being relaid to me if its in first person and if I can buy into the fact that maybe one person is writing it down what are the odds someone else in the story is also writing their account? Most times it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Chessie]

I love first person. That is, I love writing it. I like the intimacy, and my characters/narrators are snarky and sarcastic, so it can be pretty fun as well. I don't have any preference when reading.

Just in the interest of making conversation, can you explain why you don't like first person? I've heard that sentiment expressed on here many times and I'm wondering why. In a good story I don't even notice the narration.

It is about intimacy, isn't it? In that case, the best way I can explain it is that 1st POV feels like a person I just met getting in much too close during a conversation. Like my space is being invaded. I like being able to see the story for what it is, get immersed in it, and first person totally breaks that connection between me and story. I've turned down many a good plot line or interesting story because of it. Won't even go past the first page.

The reason I dig 3rd POV is because it allows you inside many people's heads and allows you to make your own assumptions about things. IRL, I like to get to know people slowly. So maybe it's all related for me.

 

[Nimue]

My issue with first person is similar to the issue I have with present tense or constant asides to the reader in narration (often with snark or humor). They close narrative distance, absolutely--but they are so often used as a simple shortcut to do so, particularly in bad writing. So it's become associated with mediocre story in my head. It also somehow gives me less of a sense of the POV character as a person--if in the haste to ingratiate them, the author neglects to establish them as a living, breathing being in their own world, rather than a mere narrative voice.

I like Chester's metaphor. No, I don't want to be immediately in this snarky protagonist's head--I want to choose to come along with him.

That's not to say first person never works for me, far from it. A couple of my favorite books/series are in first person, though far, far more are in third. These books would be compelling from page one no matter what POV they were in, but first undoubtedly works best for them in specific ways.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

It is about intimacy, isn't it? In that case, the best way I can explain it is that 1st POV feels like a person I just met getting in much too close during a conversation. Like my space is being invaded. I like being able to see the story for what it is, get immersed in it, and first person totally breaks that connection between me and story. I've turned down many a good plot line or interesting story because of it. Won't even go past the first page.

The reason I dig 3rd POV is because it allows you inside many people's heads and allows you to make your own assumptions about things. IRL, I like to get to know people slowly. So maybe it's all related for me.

Huh. That's really interesting.

I guess you would like to have objectivity when reading, while I like seeing the story through the filter of the character.

 

[Chessie]

You're still able to see through the filter of the character in 3rd.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

You're still able to see through the filter of the character in 3rd.

Yeah, well. I wrote my Top Scribe entry in 3rd and when i use 3rd I typically feel detached. I don't like it much.

 

[Chessie]

But just because you don't like it much doesn't mean that a reader who enjoys 3rd person perspective doesn't feel connected to the story or the characters.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

But just because you don't like it much doesn't mean that a reader who enjoys 3rd person perspective doesn't feel connected to the story or the characters.

Oh well. I suppose you can't have both.

 

[Russ]

Third or perhaps tight third does seem to be the dominant form of writing in adult genre fiction today.

Many professional writers will tell you that writing good first is actually very hard due to its rather significant limitations, especially where complex plotting in involved, which is why I think you see here and there, mixed first and third to solve that problem. But that takes a boatload of skill to carry off well, and the third has to be super tight.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Third or perhaps tight third does seem to be the dominant form of writing in adult genre fiction today.

Many professional writers will tell you that writing good first is actually very hard due to its rather significant limitations, especially where complex plotting in involved, which is why I think you see here and there, mixed first and third to solve that problem. But that takes a boatload of skill to carry off well, and the third has to be super tight.

I've already become familiar with the plot issues first can create.

I have two narrators, though, so it's not that bad. What i will struggle with most is showing enough of what's going on with the antagonist to make things make sense, but not so much that it will ruin the story.

 

[FifthView]

First and intimate limited third, from the POV of a teenager—who wants to relive that?

Actually I've always maintained that having the novice's POV is beneficial for a fantasy writer because all the odd newness of the fantasy world can be experienced for the first time by both narrator and reader. This is Harry Potter first discovering the wizarding world, coincidentally the reader's first discoveries in that world. But young protagonists are only one type of possible novice.

Before I'd written what follows that em-dash above, I'd written something else and then deleted it. This: "—isn't that the definition of 'dumbing down the narrative?' " This is only because I'm a cantankerous old man who can hardly enjoy popular music these days because, seriously, you have to be a novice just discovering the world, love, heartbreak, partying all night, etc., to enjoy the themes of popular music. Even classic rock and roll, which I listen to far more often, also tends to come from the same youthful frame of reference, which is very sad for me because I have greatly loved rock and roll in my life. But more seriously: Yes, young people are pretty stupid as a matter of course; or, let's call it a severe lack of experience. I was one once, so I should know.

 

[KC Trae Becker]

I find writing in 1st helps me get to know the character better. Then I shift it to 3rd later, because too many people complain about first person. I'm fine either way.

I like reading and writing YA, middle grade and even a few picture books, because the characters are more mutable. Adult fiction often focuses too much on substance abuse and bad sex lives. The main characters are usually angrier and more dismissive of other characters. They often feel like they already know everything or they are lost in self pity or self doubt.

FifthView said, "First and intimate limited third, from the POV of a teenager—who wants to relive that?"

I counter with 1st or 3rd from an angry, old, cantankerous person? I get plenty of that already. Sometimes, I even have to live with it in my own head. I prefer to remember when I and the people around me had more flexible viewpoints and more creative ideas.

(Confession, I too am a teacher and have an eleven year old who just happens to be two books into the Warriors series.)

 

[SeverinR]

I think people think of "kids chapter books" when thinking young adult.
IMHO YA is basically writing PG13-NC17, maybe even skimming a fine wire next to R, for all material that encompasses those movie ratings. Violence, sex, foul language, blood and gore, etc.

The reason I feel my writings are most YA, is that they are coming of age stories. They could be Adult fantasy, but I think writing YA opens it to two genre publishers, instead of just one.

If you want to know what YA is, go to that section in a book store...if you still have a book store near you. lol.
YA= Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Divergent, Twilight,
All basically coming of age, where the "young Adult" have to figure out how to survive with little or no direct parental assistance.
Also all the above have in common? Top selling movies/books that adults of all ages enjoyed.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.

There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.

I think people think of "kids chapter books" when thinking young adult.
IMHO YA is basically writing PG13-NC17, maybe even skimming a fine wire next to R, for all material that encompasses those movie ratings. Violence, sex, foul language, blood and gore, etc.

The reason I feel my writings are most YA, is that they are coming of age stories. They could be Adult fantasy, but I think writing YA opens it to two genre publishers, instead of just one.

If you want to know what YA is, go to that section in a book store...if you still have a book store near you. lol.
YA= Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Divergent, Twilight,
All basically coming of age, where the "young Adult" have to figure out how to survive with little or no direct parental assistance.
Also all the above have in common? Top selling movies/books that adults of all ages enjoyed.

 

[Miskatonic]

YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.

There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.

Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.

 

[FifthView]

YA isn't a genre, it's a marketing target, but ding ding ding, coming of age stories.

There is more to what makes any genre piece YA than rating and the bildungsroman, but those are common and important aspects.

Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.

And I assume there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any approach that isn't targeting me. This is just a statement of principle, vaguely considered, because....If something's not targeting me, then how can I be a reliable judge of it?

I did love the Harry Potter books, and I've always been a huge fan of those youth-becomes-hero coming-of-age stories that fill a niche in the fantasy genre, when they are well-written. (Ah me and hyphens!) But I do think, as I think Russ mentioned above, that it's entirely possible to use young protagonists in the fantasy genre without writing what is typically considered YA:

The MC's in my current WIP are in the 15-22 year old range but I would not call the work YA, because in the time the book is set those ages are full adults.

I don't think it's merely a matter of how the fantasy world matures individuals quickly, although that may play a part.

So these hero journeys that begin at an early age may or may not be YA, on the whole.

I think fantasy might have a peculiar intersection with the topic at hand. There's often a sense of wonder and dread, encounters with the unknown that are similar to the way all individuals experience life as they grow and mature. (Here, I'm strongly reminded of the movie Finding Neverland....Or just look at Netflix's Stranger Things and how the three different age groups are handled....) If I had to "explain" my enjoyment of Harry Potter vs other examples of YA, I'd probably focus on that sense of wonder and Rowling's ability to deliver it in an unobtrusive and engaging way with lots of creativity. But I can experience those things in works that are not specifically targeted at the YA market, also.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Not marketed toward me, I think that sooo often when I see Miller Lite ads from years past at least... I don't see many ads these days with the DVR, LOL. I would watch those ads and think, "nope, they aren't targeting me! That was a horrible ad that makes me want to NOT drink their product." I happen to have similar feelings about Potter, I can't read the books, made it through a couple chapters before I gave up, and the only reason I got that far was because so many people loved it. Heck, even the movies were a labor for me to watch, think I saw the first two full through. But as I've said, Rowling must be a great story teller, and I've no doubt they are great stories for those who love them, they aren't for me, so I wll pick on them... But my ribbing is good natured, much like my not picking on Brandon Sanderson, LOL. Or I pick on romance novels... Except my wife might whack me over the head if I do that too much. So, nothing wrong with any age group or genre, but we're humans who will pick on things.

And I assume there's nothing intrinsically wrong with any approach that isn't targeting me. This is just a statement of principle, vaguely considered, because....If something's not targeting me, then how can I be a reliable judge of it?

I did love the Harry Potter books, and I've always been a huge fan of those youth-becomes-hero coming-of-age stories that fill a niche in the fantasy genre, when they are well-written. (Ah me and hyphens!) But I do think, as I think Russ mentioned above, that it's entirely possible to use young protagonists in the fantasy genre without writing what is typically considered YA:



I don't think it's merely a matter of how the fantasy world matures individuals quickly, although that may play a part.

So these hero journeys that begin at an early age may or may not be YA, on the whole.

I think fantasy might have a peculiar intersection with the topic at hand. There's often a sense of wonder and dread, encounters with the unknown that are similar to the way all individuals experience life as they grow and mature. (Here, I'm strongly reminded of the movie Finding Neverland....Or just look at Netflix's Stranger Things and how the three different age groups are handled....) If I had to "explain" my enjoyment of Harry Potter vs other examples of YA, I'd probably focus on that sense of wonder and Rowling's ability to deliver it in an unobtrusive and engaging way with lots of creativity. But I can experience those things in works that are not specifically targeted at the YA market, also.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

This brings up a weird one... Literary YA, I'm not enough of a YA person to know, but I presume these are more densely written, more abstract might be the better description, and mostly sticking to modern stories and themes in a realistic way.

What constitutes literary in adult fiction is always an interesting discussion, but I've never bothered to glance at a "literary YA" to see what's up there.

Exactly, and that's why we refer to certain types of books as YA. The ones that are being marketed at the Harry Potter, Twilight, etc., demographic.

 

[FifthView]

Except my wife might whack me over the head if I do that too much.

No one likes being hit over the head. :eek2:

For me, a type of hit-me-over-the-head targeting that I don't particularly like in some YA approaches doesn't concern how the young protagonists are portrayed but how the adults are portrayed. When all the adults are

A) Absent
B) Oblivious
C) Non-evil antagonists
D) Evil villains
E) All of the above,

then it's a little tedious and/or unrealistic. Harry Potter had a number of adults who were none of the above, although some fell into the above categories. GRRM's ASOIAF has young protagonists—heck, mama and papa Stark died but all the kids are coming of age—but it also has adult protagonists who play significant roles in the story. (ASOIAF is not YA; I'm just using it as an example of non-YA stories that can incorporate young POV characters and coming-of-age themes.)

I've enjoyed MTV's Teen Wolf, shows like Vampire Diaries, and even the Twilight movies somewhat...but they grow a little tedious sometimes. (I gave up watching VD. TW I continue to watch despite a drop in quality in the later seasons, mostly just to see the unusual approach to supernatural themes.) But these are largely examples of Adults Are Meh. I mean, how many people in that town on Teen Wolf have to die from unexplained "animal-related" deaths before more adults become aware of the problem and the FBI or National Guard are sent in?

Then there are the young characters themselves. People can be dying left and right in horrible ways, but there's always time to worry more about personal betrayals, love interests and feelings, and god forbid someone should seek out adults for guidance and help. At least those stories set in our modern world might have a tiny bit of realism for the characters—i.e., first-world problems, entitled self-centered kids—but put the same sort of characters into a medieval setting and....?

Aside from these things, but related, there's the myopic-world syndrome, where the entire rest of the world hardly exists and we have a microcosm of a handful of characters. This is one of the things I don't like about Arrow on CW. Besides turning into a soap opera, it's the interbred-quality where the same characters keep showing up and fighting each other in ever new permutations, new alliances, etc. But that tiny-world syndrome (here's me trying to find the appropriate term) also applies to those cases where the FBI, police forces, adults in general, and so forth seemingly do not exist.

I don't know. Maybe these are only personal pet peeves, and I am not the target.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The tendency for adults to be portrayed as flat stupid (in a lot of pop culture aimed at the youthful market, not simply YA books which I have minimal knowledge of) is kind of mind-boggling in a pandering way, or as you say, the adults just don't exist.

No one likes being hit over the head. :eek2:

For me, a type of hit-me-over-the-head targeting that I don't particularly like in some YA approaches doesn't concern how the young protagonists are portrayed but how the adults are portrayed. When all the adults are

A) Absent
B) Oblivious
C) Non-evil antagonists
D) Evil villains
E) All of the above,

then it's a little tedious and/or unrealistic. Harry Potter had a number of adults who were none of the above, although some fell into the above categories. GRRM's ASOIAF has young protagonists—heck, mama and papa Stark died but all the kids are coming of age—but it also has adult protagonists who play significant roles in the story. (ASOIAF is not YA; I'm just using it as an example of non-YA stories that can incorporate young POV characters and coming-of-age themes.)

I've enjoyed MTV's Teen Wolf, shows like Vampire Diaries, and even the Twilight movies somewhat...but they grow a little tedious sometimes. (I gave up watching VD. TW I continue to watch despite a drop in quality in the later seasons, mostly just to see the unusual approach to supernatural themes.) But these are largely examples of Adults Are Meh. I mean, how many people in that town on Teen Wolf have to die from unexplained "animal-related" deaths before more adults become aware of the problem and the FBI or National Guard are sent in?

Then there are the young characters themselves. People can be dying left and right in horrible ways, but there's always time to worry more about personal betrayals, love interests and feelings, and god forbid someone should seek out adults for guidance and help. At least those stories set in our modern world might have a tiny bit of realism for the characters—i.e., first-world problems, entitled self-centered kids—but put the same sort of characters into a medieval setting and....?

Aside from these things, but related, there's the myopic-world syndrome, where the entire rest of the world hardly exists and we have a microcosm of a handful of characters. This is one of the things I don't like about Arrow on CW. Besides turning into a soap opera, it's the interbred-quality where the same characters keep showing up and fighting each other in ever new permutations, new alliances, etc. But that tiny-world syndrome (here's me trying to find the appropriate term) also applies to those cases where the FBI, police forces, adults in general, and so forth seemingly do not exist.

I don't know. Maybe these are only personal pet peeves, and I am not the target.