Sexually explicit in fantasy - yay or nay?

[droiditbook303]

I don't think anyone was saying it can't or shouldn't be a story telling tool. There are just some things that might make it much more useful for some authors to imply sex rather than explicitly show it.

Agree completely. I find that "less is more" is more impactful than explicitness, but whenever a book "fades to black" I roll my eyes which is problematic because I lose my spot. Like I said before, though, it depends on context.

 

[Mythopoet]

That said, do you want to constrain your art to the lowest common denominator?

Pardon? Are you saying that the most accessible story is naturally inferior? I strongly disagree with that assumption.

To digress, and I know I've touched on this before, but I find it insane that we (generally speaking, of course) love our explicit violence, but get embarrassingly uncomfortable when it comes to even hints of sex or sensuality. For example, I saw the latest Hobbit film in theater and there were outbursts of laughter and whoops whenever a character was beheaded. Yet, can you show even non-exclusive nudity in a PG-13 film? It is still symptom of our (USA) sex negative (and violence worshipping) culture that drives me bananas.

I've already addressed this. Violence and sex are apples and oranges. Constantly comparing them in this manner only indicates that you don't understand how they are different. People react differently to them because they are not the same, watching/reading them give very different experiences.

Sorry for the rant, but I think those who say sex can't or shouldn't be a useful story telling tool are being a little narrow. Again, depending on the type of story.

No one said this. We are talking about our personal reasons for whether or not we are ok with reading and/or writing explicit sex scenes.

 

[Brian Scott Allen]

Rei,

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit. I feel as though my post contributed to the spiral, which was not my intention.

In any event I generally do not use explicit sex. I can't write it well enough and I have religious objections to it. I do have sexuality and implied sex, and I depict the afterwards to explain the impact on my characters.

 

[Chessie]

I'm glad we're done talking about religion. Now back to sex.

Using fantasy examples this time, I'd like to touch on the OP's question. I've probably mentioned this somewhere on these forums before but recently, I read an urban fantasy story that had pages upon pages of explicit sex scenes between the main character and her boyfriend. There was also about a page's worth of description about when her uncle molested her. There was an abundance of cuss words and just meaningless dribble. I *was* a fan of that writer up until I read that novel...and now I refuse to buy her work. Why? She turned me off. I don't find sex disgusting. I love sex. But I also think there's a time/place/purpose for it in literature.

Second example, our dear fellow write A.E. Lowan (whom I haven't seen around here in a while) wrote a short story about a vampire that I thoroughly enjoyed. The story was ripe with sexuality and it gave depth to the main character. She used specific words, phrases, and twisted her (their) language in a way that it gave artistic flavor to the minimal sex present in the story. I loved it. But I also understood that the vampire was an individual that *really* loved sex WITHOUT having to be exposed to pages of meaningless graphic demonstration. It was a beautiful depiction of a character's sexual conquests and relationship with one specific person.

Point in saying, I have no problem reading about it when its giving me insight to the character. A particular paragraph in A.E. Lowan's story used sex and sexuality as a way of pointing out things about that character which would otherwise have been difficult to let the reader in on without it. Sex became valuable.

In the first story I mentioned, sex was vulgar and treated like a commodity. I don't need to read pages about a character doing things with her boyfriend...when after all is said and done nothing changed her or drove the story forward. It drove me insane and it took me weeks to finish that book because I can't just give up once I've started. It didn't make me uncomfortable it just pissed me off. The point?

This is why I prefer not to write graphic sex scenes. I've written erotica shorts to try and develop that part of my skill and like I mentioned earlier, writing about graphic sex is hard for me. Its also not something which fits into my fantasy stories. My readers would be thrown off if all of the sudden I described every detail of my character's drug infused sex escapades. I rather just write a few lines about her emotional state before and after, while also depicting how her sexual relationship with the antagonist affects the story (the choices she makes etc).

For me, its not that less is more or to do with censorship and everything to do with the fact that I rather write with a lady-like femininity. No one shoot me down for this LOL. Sex is a beautiful fun act that is very human in its existence. To throw it around with graphic intention animalizes it and is disrespectful to readers, imo.

 

[droiditbook303]

This will be my last post in this topic because I feel like I'm getting off-topic with this thread, but I'm happy to continue this discussion off-thread...

Pardon? Are you saying that the most accessible story is naturally inferior? I strongly disagree with that assumption.

I did not make this assumption. However, trying to make your story more accessible can dilute your story or lessen what you are trying to say.

I've already addressed this. Violence and sex are apples and oranges. Constantly comparing them in this manner only indicates that you don't understand how they are different. People react differently to them because they are not the same, watching/reading them give very different experiences.

Sorry to be blunt, but I see this response as an infantile way to shut down a discussion. Violence and sex are obviously different and people react to them differently, but this doesn't mean that it isn't an important comparison to make. We can get more into this offline, if you'd like.

No one said this. We are talking about our personal reasons for whether or not we are ok with reading and/or writing explicit sex scenes.

Yes. Yes. Nobody said this, I agree. The tone of some of these posts (especially some of the earlier ones) threw me. My apologies for figuratively putting words in other poster's mouths.

 

[Fyle]

Sorry to be blunt, but I see this response as an infantile way to shut down a discussion. Violence and sex are obviously different and people react to them differently, but this doesn't mean that it isn't an important comparison to make. We can get more into this offline, if you'd like.

This is correct.

It is important to make the comparison to defend sex by saying, look, people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.

Since violence is worse than sex, their opinions and mindsets on the issue come from an external bias or... they are not comfortable with sex on a personal level;which most healthy functional adults should be.


７th post driod and dead on. Welcome to the grind！

Mythos, you are right, we went too far off topic. The Jesus talk is best for a different thread. The thing is, religion and not liking or being offended by sex are related, so, its going to come up at some point when people cant explain clearly why they dont like sex in fiction.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.

You're generalizing.

Some readers skip violence & fighting if they come across it in a story. Some skip sex. Some like/dislike this. Some like/dislike that.

We can't say another's reasoning unless they tell us. We certainly can't lump everyone into camp A or camp B.

 

[Devor]

I made a point in my last post that I think was lost, here. So I'm going to take an unusual step for me and quote myself.

In the course of my day to day activities, I find very few temptations to rip somebody's heart out and chew it raw. How often am I tempted to commit adultery? That depends on what you mean by temptation, but I appreciate as few shoves in that direction as possible.

Sex is pushed aside because in our society it tempts most regular people. Violence doesn't tempt most people in anywhere near the same way.

Real life violence is "worse" than sex, but violence in fiction is not worse than sex in fiction.

Violence is fantasy. Sex is temptation.

 

[X Equestris]

This is correct.

It is important to make the comparison to defend sex by saying, look, people who are offended or turned off are by sex are the same ones who accept and enjoy violence in novels.

Since violence is worse than sex, their opinions and mindsets on the issue come from an external bias or... they are not comfortable with sex on a personal level;which most healthy functional adults should be.


７th post driod and dead on. Welcome to the grind！

Mythos, you are right, we went too far off topic. The Jesus talk is best for a different thread. The thing is, religion and not liking or being offended by sex are related, so, its going to come up at some point when people cant explain clearly why they dont like sex in fiction.

Sex has long been considered a more private affair, and that doesn't have anything to do with religion. Also, you do a fantastic job with generalizing. I see two massive generalizations right here.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I think it's fair to say violence is relevant, since when you read fantasy, violence is expected.

Specifically, you expect swords and dragon-bites and catapults and fire-breath. Fantasy violence. It gets a teen rating in video games.

Violence you don't expect in all fantasy is the kind that shows up in gritty/grimdark. What else is not expected in all fantasy is sex.

There's a line you cross, and where that line is differs for everyone, but you should be aware of that line. For example, a fairy—little three inch woman with wings—has sex with Broman the Barbarian. How many of you hate me for the mental image?

If I described it, you'd REALLY hate me. So would I. Yuck.

The point is, there's a threshold people have for sex in literature (and violence, yes), so you can't just say, "It's my art, anything goes." You still need readers.

Some readers want the sex scenes. If you're that reader, be that writer. Just don't think you're automatically broadening your audience. Your sex scenes will turn some readers on (hopefully not too much) and some readers off.

 

[Fyle]

Agree completely. I find that "less is more" is more impactful than explicitness, but whenever a book "fades to black" I roll my eyes which is problematic because I lose my spot. Like I said before, though, it depends on context.

Its about less or more on a broader scope. Limiting options simply put is less.

This agrgument is tough because the OP said 'explicit'.

That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary, but graphic or detailed could be.

Nonetheless, writing is a boundless art, and all should be considered. If you are a writer, words are your tools, cut out words due to their meaning and imagery and you throw away a piece of your toolbox.

If you have other tools besides words, fill me in.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Its about less or more on a broader scope. Limiting options simply put is less.

This agrgument is tough because the OP said 'explicit'.

That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary, but graphic or detailed could be.

Isn't your statement placing a limit?
That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary.

Why is it understandable for you to place a limit where anyone else would fall under the judgment of Limiting options simply put is less?

Nonetheless, writing is a boundless art, and all should be considered. If you are a writer, words are your tools, cut out words due to their meaning and imagery and you throw away a piece of your toolbox.

If you have other tools besides words, fill me in.

That I'll agree with, but it's another point entirely.

We're talking about content....how, and to what extent, individual writers are willing to show.

 

[Fyle]

Isn't your statement placing a limit?
That word to me seems pornographic which is not necessary.

Why is it understandable for you to place a limit where anyone else would fall under the judgment of Limiting options simply put is less?



I meant pornography with is different from explicit sex is not necessary. Pornography is a diffent genre altogether.

But, that is not to say I would eliminate anything just because of what it is.

 

[Reilith]

Sorry to bud in, but let's say for the sake of discussion that 'explicit' doesn't mean 'pornographic' here, as pornography is something different and is usually not mixed with fantasy. Erotica in a fantasy setting still falls under erotica, not fantasy, so here it is about the amount of sex shown explicitly, and what kind of opinions people here have about the topic. It is not what is better, it's not a competition or a sermon "you must think like this, not like that", it is just sharing of different opinions and why people think like that.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I meant pornography with is different from explicit sex is not necessary.

Pornography is a diffent genre altogether.

That distinction is dependent on where you place your limit. What is acceptable to one individual may be considered pornographic by another.

The definition of pornography is content with no artistic value, meant only to stimulate sexual desire. However, where that line is, separating art with artistic value from art without, is a centuries old debate.

It's entirely a matter of an individual's point of view.

 

[Fyle]

This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about.

The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.

 

[Tom]

Excuse me, but I think I have a right to choose what I do and don't write. If I don't want to write an explicit sex scene, that is my choice. I am perfectly capable of writing something I'm not comfortable with, but if I do so, it will be on my own terms, not on someone else's insistence that I "have to" do it.

 

[Devor]

The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.

Sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with . . . . in order to do what?

Not everybody has, or should have, the same goals with their writing. There are a great many places a person can take their writing, while still pushing all sorts of limits, without dealing with content they have no interest in dealing with.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about.

The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.

It's not semantics.

Since you're having trouble understanding contrary points of view, I'm trying to show you through your own.

You consider pornography unnecessary, but the distinction of what moves from explicit to pornographic is unclear. That line is placed by each individual, call it a limit if you wish.

Others have the same prerogative. Another writer might consider explicit sex unacceptable in the same way you think of pornographic content. Neither is right or wrong, it's simply personal opinion. Their writing will reflect personal preferences. That's one small part of what makes a writer unique.

I have no issues with writing or reading sex, explicit or not. To date, I prefer a minimalist approach, but that's because I'd rather the reader bring their own sexuality into the tale...a filling in of the blanks. That's my approach with most description.

That's my way. I'd never admonish another writer because they choose expression of a different form. Art would be god awful boring if we all did things the same way.

 

[X Equestris]

This is semantics at this point, and not what my underlining comments are about.

The important thing to me is not limiting yourself based on outside influences and to create realism, sometimes you have to write what you aren't comfortable dealing with. Not push them away because they offend or turn you off.

Why do I need explicit sex to create realism? The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that. My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.