Grappling

[Legendary Sidekick]

SP showed me a nice site that had grappling rules which he considered more interesting than C&C's. Grappling is not monk-only, though a monk (especially a former-barbarian-turned-monk) has a couple of advantages. Still, anyone can enjoy these rules, so SP asked me to sticky what we discussed:


Choke/Submission
Purpose: Make opponent pass out. / Temporarily disable a limb.
Roll: Grapple check*

*For non-monks, a grapple check is the same roll as a STR check.


Opponent must make a STR/DEX check to overpower/evade. If grappled, the opponent must make a CON save to prevent the effect of the grappling technique. If the opponent has a CON bonus, he gets that many additional turns to resist until he needs to make a CON save.


Any disruption to the hold frees the opponent.








Slam/Throw
Purpose: Damage and temporarily immobilize a grappled opponent (or two).
Rolls:
SLAM - Grapple check; unarmed damage
THROW - Grapple check; STR check; unarmed damage


Opponent must make a STR/DEX check to overpower/evade. If grappled, the opponent is damaged, landing next to the grappler if slammed or away from the grappler if thrown. He is stunned for 1 turn from the slam/throw unless he makes a CON save.


If the opponent is thrown at another opponent, both take damage (halved) and both may be stunned for 1 turn.

Also, since there's precedent, a TOSS can be done with just a grapple check—that's a non-damaging throw.







Restraint/Pin
Purpose: Hold an opponent so he can be hit and can't hit back.
Rolls:
RESTRAINT - Grapple check
PIN ATTACK - Grapple check; (hit; unarmed damage)


Opponent must make a STR/DEX check to overpower/evade. If grappled, the opponent is held in place or pinned. If restrained, the grappler's ally can hit her opponent until he is able to escape from the grappler's hold.


If pinned, the grappler rolls hit/damage to attack her opponent until he is able to escape from her pin.




And…
The above is based on the rules seen on this page—everything from "Grappling Consequences" to "If You're Pinned…"

So if you want to know how to, for example, grab a fish demon and toss him into the fire that's 4 squares away, the rule can be found on the linked page. (Half movement for moving while grappling + throw distance as seen above.)

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Regarding the six-second rule, a suplex can be done in five.

…and you don't even need big muscles!

 

[Nihal]

Hahaha! A non-monk made one of these moves already, when Ankari choked Mauve. I think that in that occasion two STR checks were made, but no CON. It went well for something not following these specific rules.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

It was close enough, anyway. I just thought we should know how to figure out how many turns it takes to choke someone out before resistance becomes futile.

Ankari used "choke" and "toss"… both against PCs!



I got a kick out of the "grappling consequence" that says you lose the DEX bonus when grappling. Baldy would benefit from that if only negative modifiers would be lost as well, but at least her AC doesn't get any worse than it already is.

 

[ndmellen]

I was actually really excited to discuss grappling and jiu jitsu...and then I realized this thread had nothing to do with either.

 

[Nihal]

^Hahaha, poor mythic scriber, you wandered in the wrong neighborhood!

---

By any chance, would the tossed character be Cadell? I don't remember this one well either.

Baldhart is a resilient monster. Why DEX when you can just crush your enemy?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Yeah. Cadell was shoved at the about-to-be-murdered priest.

Baldy's been lucky so far. The last enemy rolled a 9 against her. A 10 would've hit.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I checked the link in the OP for what Baldy and Bressel are attempting:

Multiple Grapplers
Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

My thought is that Bressel is helping Baldy stop the creature from squirming. I'm not sure what your call will be regarding the result of this turn. I guess if Baldy's 12 is enough, she just slams the creature as planned. I'll understand that if the creature rolls 13-21, Baldy and Bressel have limited options such as "restrain the demon" or "toss the demon off the cliff."

From the quote, it seems clear that the enemy being teamed up on needs to beat all grapplers to escape. (I think the fish demon is forced on the defensive in the current situation.) What's not clear is whether multiple grapplers can coordinate a skillful technique together. (That 7 damage Baldy rolled.) Basically, I'll accept your call whatever it is.

I'm under the opinion that Baldhart and Masama could coordinate grapple attacks together due to their training (she talked about Hanako enough in-game that I didn't just pull this history out of my ass...right?), but I'm not so sure if using unskilled brute strength should allow this. SP, since I'm under the impression you'd make the same ruling for monks as non-monks, which is fine by me, I'll gladly accept whichever call you make. I mean either two grapplers can use a damaging attack together, or two grapplers can only restrain or shove off cliffs.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

SP,

I'm curious abut the choke hold. We did agree that you get free saves if you have a CON bonus (+1 = 1 turn; +3 = 3 turns), then you need a CON save.

So, do I understand correctly? If you have no CON bonus AND CON isn't a prime, you need to roll 18+opponent's level to save. So if Baldhart chokes an opponent with CON 0 / not prime, and her STR check is higher than the opposing STR or DEX-to-escape roll, that guy's going down because he can't roll a 21, right?

EDIT - I forgot to consider level, so 21 is possible… unless of course the opponent is a barbarian-monk who forces an intimidate save on the poor schmuck.

I mean, that guy goes down if no one intervenes. Another enemy could pull Baldhart's pigtails and mess up her move. Or a well-meaning player could stab the grappled enemy and save his life.

(I hope everyone understands that choked enemies should not be touched... at least not if Baldhart's grapple roll is well into the 20s or 30s. I will choke an enemy as soon as the GM post is up, assuming it's still just the two elves.)

 

[SeverinR]

I checked the link in the OP for what Baldy and Bressel are attempting:


My thought is that Bressel is helping Baldy stop the creature from squirming. I'm not sure what your call will be regarding the result of this turn. I guess if Baldy's 12 is enough, she just slams the creature as planned. I'll understand that if the creature rolls 13-21, Baldy and Bressel have limited options such as "restrain the demon" or "toss the demon off the cliff."
.

I read this, if a PC is able to break away from 4 attackers(without help), I'd say that would be some bonus to intimidate/ break morale.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I read this, if a PC is able to break away from 4 attackers(without help), I'd say that would be some bonus to intimidate/ break morale.

It's not too far fetched. We had a student (one of mine) who was arrested, and it took five guys to keep him still so the police could slap the cuffs on. He was intimidated. The idea of being hauled away in a police car scared him, hence his resistance.

 

[Steerpike]

One thing that will help with respect to grappling is to remember that a grapple attempt is a standard action. You basically make an attempt to grab (which is a melee attack roll) and then as a free action you make opposing grapple checks with the target. It occurs to me that I should probably adhere to that a bit more. You still have SIEGE checks if you want to perform something that normally wouldn't work, but as a general rule if you're making an ordinary melee attack you can't also grapple in the same round because that is combining two standard actions (basically two attacks) into one round. On the other hand, a grapple check to hold a grapple that has already been established, or to oppose a grapple, is a free action and you can still act normally during that round.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I think that would keep grappling from being OP—not being able to throw immediately. In that case, I don't think the slam/throw effect needs to be nerfed.

 

[Steerpike]

Yeah, there is no need to nerf it.

And keep in mind the SIEGE option allows attempts at special types of actions - things you might need feats for in 3.X D&D or Pathfinder. So if you score a substantial kick (say a high to-hit roll and a good damage roll to go with it), there's no reason you might not send the target sprawling. A SIEGE check would be a good fit in that situation, in order to give it a try. Also, when the situation warrants it I will start adding in SIEGE checks for characters to special effects so that eveyone gets a better idea of how they might be used.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I think we went with traditional grapple rules. So if I understand correctly...

A monk is always "armed" meaning she can approach an armed NPC without provoking AOO. She can grapple or fight, but the grapple takes 1 round to establish. Next round, maintain and attack.

If a monk is approached by an unarmed NPC, does the NPC provoke AOO?

 

[Steerpike]

C&C doesn't actually have a rule for AOOs, since it was based mostly one 1e and AOOs didn't come about until 3E Dungeons and Dragons.

But AOO is a combat rule anyway, and so it only applies when in combat. If we're outside of combat and an NPC, armed or unarmed, approached a monk, the monk can always attack, or try to grapple, or what have you. Another class could as well. Is that what you're getting at?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Okay. That makes sense.