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How much magic is too much?
- Thread starter Chessie
- Start date
In my opinion, the amount of magic isn't as important as consistency with how it's handled.
I can read high fantasy or low fantasy and be fine. The quality of a story isn't defined by elements like these. However, some readers may have a tendency to go for stories that fit within certain parameters, like the amount of magic.
I can read high fantasy or low fantasy and be fine. The quality of a story isn't defined by elements like these. However, some readers may have a tendency to go for stories that fit within certain parameters, like the amount of magic.
GeekDavid
Dark Lord
While I tend to like high magic, I don't like everything with a lot of magic in it. There has to be consistency, even if the rules are never clearly explained. If a new method of magic comes up in the same world, there should be some explanation of why this person is able to do it this way, even if it's something like "he didn't have any training in the traditional method, so he came up with his own."
I guess another way of asking the question would be: how do you avoid magic being overpowered?
When you have the magic in your story be too powerful it crosses the lines from fantastic into unbelievable. Like TAS says above, it doesn't matter too much how powerful the magic is, but how consistently it's handled. The reader needs to feel there's some kind of reason behind the magic. It needs to work the same for all users - unless of course the unreliability and unpredictability of magic is an integral part of it.
Brian Sanderson has written a bit on the topic:
When you have the magic in your story be too powerful it crosses the lines from fantastic into unbelievable. Like TAS says above, it doesn't matter too much how powerful the magic is, but how consistently it's handled. The reader needs to feel there's some kind of reason behind the magic. It needs to work the same for all users - unless of course the unreliability and unpredictability of magic is an integral part of it.
Brian Sanderson has written a bit on the topic:
Sanderson’s First Law
Sanderson’s Second Law
Sanderson’s Third Law of Magic
I don't think you can overdo it. It's about the type of world/story you're creating and its needs. My thinking of magic runs parallel to the way Brandon Sanderson thinks of things. The more you use magic to solve story problems, the more it needs to be explained. If you don't use magic to solve problems, then you don't have to explain anything at all.
My WIP is an urban fantasy in a magic rich world, where magic out in the open and is everywhere. I created rules for the parts of magic that affected story and left other parts mysterious. I boiled the problems I had to deal with down into one question. If magic is common, then why isn't every light bulb powered by magic?
Just being able to answer a simple question like that, and similar questions, I think I was able to ground the magic and make it practical, so it fit in with the modern world. And I guess that's the key, making it fit the world.
Also on a slight tangent.
Magic and science IMHO run parallel. Think about something like Star Trek. The technology and techno-babble might as well be magic because it's so advanced and gobbley-gookey. How many times can they reroute warp drive power through Jeffries tubes 3 and 4 and into the main deflector array to do X? But things like this don't stand out because it fits into the world.
My WIP is an urban fantasy in a magic rich world, where magic out in the open and is everywhere. I created rules for the parts of magic that affected story and left other parts mysterious. I boiled the problems I had to deal with down into one question. If magic is common, then why isn't every light bulb powered by magic?
Just being able to answer a simple question like that, and similar questions, I think I was able to ground the magic and make it practical, so it fit in with the modern world. And I guess that's the key, making it fit the world.
Also on a slight tangent.
Magic and science IMHO run parallel. Think about something like Star Trek. The technology and techno-babble might as well be magic because it's so advanced and gobbley-gookey. How many times can they reroute warp drive power through Jeffries tubes 3 and 4 and into the main deflector array to do X? But things like this don't stand out because it fits into the world.
Ophiucha
Dark Lord
Definitely agree with the others, with an added thought.
I think there's a point you'll hit where magic needs to have a balance. A lot of fantasy worlds have magic as a trained art, or a rare gift. It's powerful, but no more so than a few good swords in the hands of skilled warriors. Fine, but if magic becomes something extremely powerful, more of a natural force than a mere tool or weapon, I don't think it works as well to have it limited to a select number of people, or else the world would have been destroyed centuries ago. Either there needs to be an anti-magic of some sort, or perhaps magic so potent and powerful cannot be contained in just a handful of people and creatures.
I think there's a point you'll hit where magic needs to have a balance. A lot of fantasy worlds have magic as a trained art, or a rare gift. It's powerful, but no more so than a few good swords in the hands of skilled warriors. Fine, but if magic becomes something extremely powerful, more of a natural force than a mere tool or weapon, I don't think it works as well to have it limited to a select number of people, or else the world would have been destroyed centuries ago. Either there needs to be an anti-magic of some sort, or perhaps magic so potent and powerful cannot be contained in just a handful of people and creatures.
Feo Takahari
Dark Lord
I've mentioned before that I like how El Goonish Shive handles magic. It violates a lot of the suggested rules--anti-magic is rare, potential magic-users are common, and there are very few hard limits on what magic can do. The thing is, it's a setting that's constantly on the verge of catastrophe, where one ordinary jerk who happens to find a quick route to power can easily cause massive death and destruction before anyone's able to stop him. The author follows through with the dark implications his magic system implies, and the world around that magic reflects it.
I think it's all a matter of how willing you are to follow through. If you have a world where magic is rare, reflect that in how magic is thought of and how people react to it. If you have a world where magic is common, reflect how it changes the world.
I think it's all a matter of how willing you are to follow through. If you have a world where magic is rare, reflect that in how magic is thought of and how people react to it. If you have a world where magic is common, reflect how it changes the world.
- Thread starter
- #8
These responses are all very juicy, thank you. See, some of the magic in my story's world has a technological function, while the magic at the core of the story is much more dangerous and forbidden. It does cause catastrophe, but I'm trying to find balance here so that magic doesn't seem overpowered as mentioned above. I like having an explanation of how the magic works for myself, but I don't usually give readers those answers.
AnneL
Lore Master
One of the things that makes me lose interest in magic as a reader is when it gets too repetitive. The first time I want some sort of explanation of how it works or where it comes from, but I don't want to see that repeated over and over. I think magic by itself doesn't overwhelm a story, but when the author keeps trying to show it, it gets boring, which is the last thing you want from magic. Once someone's convinced me that the world has magic, I don't need to keep being sold on it. Now that I know it works and sort of what the parameters are, I want to see what to see what characters do in response to it.
- Thread starter
- #10
AnneL
Lore Master
Yeah. One example would be in a D&D magic-user type world if we got the spell recipe or rituals every single time it was used. Another might be if there's a shapeshifter and every time there's a transformation we get treated to a description of how it feels to take a different form. J.K. Rowling (probably prodded by an editor) describes Quidditch when it's first mentioned in the first four books, and then she starts assuming the reader knows what Quidditch is and it just becomes part of the background texture of the world while the story focuses on the events. The HP books are a good example of a writer figuring out how to work with magic -- by the last 3, she's much more assured in the solidity of the wizarding world and the stories get a lot more compelling.
I guess it's the repetition that makes it a bit dull.
Let's take the books about Harry Dresden as an example. Harry is a magician and at some point in every book there's a passage about how magic works in his world. After fourteen books I feel I have a pretty good idea about how he casts spells and I don't really need the explanation. However, since it's just once per book I can live with it - especially if it's been a while since I read the previous book - then it brings me back into the world like something familiar to latch on to.
The Dresden books are fairly short. You could probably fit three or four of them withing your average epic fantasy novel (Malazan Empire, ASOIAF) without too much trouble. Now imagine you're reading one of those books and the basic fundamentals of magic are explained three or four times, instead of just once.
I think that would get a bit silly. It's important for understanding the story, but once your reader has a clue about the magic, explaining it again won't move the story forward. Reading several of the Dresden files books back to back you'll experience something of this. You already know how magic works, but you can forgive it as it's just once per book.
I tend to look at magic as a martial art. Anyone can learn it, but the years of dedication required to achieve mastery of it tends to keep most people from doing more than a spell or two. In other words First Year Hogwarts= white belt while Gandalf = Bruce Lee. Magic is also dangerous. Once you start to work a spell, ritual, or cantrip you must get it "right". Once that energy is drawn upon it will do something, and if you don't have the discipline, concentration, and fortitude to focus it correctly it will go bad for you(and possibly several acres of real estate).
I also limited magic's abilities. Magic can't be used for healing, that's the purview of doctors or priests/priestesses. Magic can't create something from nothing, but can transmute objects into new shapes, and can't be used to create "life". Golems are the province of religion, and robots would be scientific. In short I figured up the Difficulty, Rarity, and Cost of using magic on a scale of 1-8, and then laid down what those numbers meant.
I also limited magic's abilities. Magic can't be used for healing, that's the purview of doctors or priests/priestesses. Magic can't create something from nothing, but can transmute objects into new shapes, and can't be used to create "life". Golems are the province of religion, and robots would be scientific. In short I figured up the Difficulty, Rarity, and Cost of using magic on a scale of 1-8, and then laid down what those numbers meant.
Keep in mind that it's also possible to have magic in your story that is pervasive and makes absolutely no sense and is totally inconsistent and is frequently used as a deus ex machina or retconned for plot purposes, and yet have your books be some of the most popular novels of all time, and then they get made into 8 movies even though there were only 7 books, and there's billions of dollars in merchandising and theme parks and...
Feo Takahari
Dark Lord
Keep in mind that it's also possible to have magic in your story that is pervasive and makes absolutely no sense and is totally inconsistent and is frequently used as a deus ex machina or retconned for plot purposes, and yet have your books be some of the most popular novels of all time, and then they get made into 8 movies even though there were only 7 books, and there's billions of dollars in merchandising and theme parks and...
In general, YA seems to get away with more inconsistent magic than adult fiction does. I guess kids don't really care.
I don't know if it's just kids. Never underestimate the power of cool. If you tell a story well enough, readers in general will let you get away with things once in a while just because it was cool.
- Thread starter
- #17
So can a cool magic that works as technology still be just as cool when it does something supernatural?
I think if you have already established it as tech and it does something supernatural, you need an explanation as to how.
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
...or how was it now?
...or how was it now?
That's true, but then it isn't really supernatural. If you're truly going to give it a supernatural property, I'd like to see a rationale for it.