Dragon's Egg - Rules Questions and Discussion

[Steerpike]

Please use this thread for rules questions and discussions so as not to fill the story threads with OOC discussions of the rules.

Thanks!

 

[Ravana]

Sorry 'bout that. I've been trying to remember to copy them and put them in the other thread. I'll bring 'em here from now on.

•

[Relocated from elsewhere:]

((Remember that the shield AC bonus already provides the normal advantage of using a shield. This bonus assumes you are using the shield to defend yourself. Unless something special is going on, the shield AC bonus represents fully the effect of having a shield on defending oneself in combat. If Cadell wants to Evade, he'll get the bonus, but you can't do anything else, including take a move action, in a round where you are Evading, so he will have to wait until next round to Evade)).

I'd be inclined to say it at least counts as 1/4 cover for Baldhart, possibly 1/2, as there's something in the way of the shot, even if there's no benefit to Cadell. Of course, the archer will probably choose the nearer target (i.e. Cadell) regardless, so it's unlikely to matter. So either way, Cadell will at least be accomplishing his goal to some extent.…

Personal call: I'd also be inclined to give anyone concentrating solely on defense a bonus of some sort. That might depend on that person being stationary, however; since Cadell moved this round, it might not apply even if it were granted in a different situation. That's interpretation, however: what Steerpike makes of it may be different.

Though I'd also be inclined to say that, since the archer was ready, he probably would've shot the first hostile target coming through the door… he may not have gotten Baldhart right away, since he didn't expect the door to explode open and someone to charge past his aiming point, in which case he would either have fired in surprise (possibly at a penalty), shot the second target coming through (no penalty), or changed his aim to track on Baldhart (probably no penalty other than having his shot go off after other actions… which seems the most likely here, since other actions have already taken place). Again, that's all interpretation. Mentioned mostly so that players will have some ideas of how things will work when I'm running, not how current situations might play out.

 

[Sparkie]

Since you were nice enough to create this thread, Steerpike, let me be the first to ask a question: If a certain now-shieldless cleric decided to perform a sort of jump attack, would that be of any real benefit?

Let me desribe what I mean. Let's say Rydh grips his longsword with two hands, charges an enemy, leaps, and tries to drive his sword into the target and knock it down at the same time. Could that work? Would it do extra damage? Could an enemy be knocked off its feet?

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

My guess is that Rydh could roll a "charge" for the jump attack. (+2 to-hit, but at a cose: -4 AC!)

Baldhart's charges are the normal +2 to-hit and I always throw in a feat of strength roll when I charge. Of course, the 8 points of bonuses helps, but I'll say something like "attempt to stun/pin/impale" and assume that both the to-hit and STR-check need to succeed for the charge to have its full benefit.

(You lose 4 AC for the defense turn after charging, which I why I never charge a crowd. So far, my charges haven't missed either. Yesterday's would have, but I forgot to add the +2 and after rolling a 5 thought that was a good time to forget to roll a charge.)



Speaking of 8 points of bonuses, I LOVE primary instinct!

The Barbarian gains a +4 to checks for feats of STR, DEX, or CON. This includes the ability to hold one's breath for extended periods of time, run longer distances, survive longer in extreme environments, and so on.

I checked the rules to make sure I was really able to use my +4 bonus to defend against the fart cloud, and not only am I sure I can because of the above, but I don't have to worry about rolling in the next turn(s), do I? (I rolled a 23!)


EDIT- Also, please note that Baldhart will remain silent for quite some time, as she is not only holding her breath... I tend to keep her silent when she uses primal instinct. I picture her in an animal-like rage, or with an unhuman level of focus on the task or threat.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

A question on Ireth's behalf:

A lizard is fighting Baldhart with a skillet. (Worked in Tangled.) Can Cadell clobber the lizard with his shield? (Worked in Game of Thrones.)

 

[Steerpike]

Have to answer these tonight when I get home.

On the shield - I'll look for a specific rule on something like a shield bash when I get home and can look through the book. Otherwise, I'd treat it like an improvised weapon (same for the skillet).

 

[Ireth]

I think it might be good to specify which abilities and such require rolls and which don't. I don't want to make more mistakes like the one I just did. ^^; Shame, that was a dang good roll.

 

[Nihal]

I think it might be good to specify which abilities and such require rolls and which don't. I don't want to make more mistakes like the one I just did. ^^; Shame, that was a dang good roll.

It's relatively safe to assume you can roll to counter anything except the ordinary combat situation - where it's an attack roll vs the current AC of the opponent. These actions use attribute and situational modifiers instead.

If I tried to push you during the battle - what isn't the standard attack - I think you would have the right to roll STR to stay in place. When Baldhart used Intimidate vs Mauve I had the opportunity to do a CHA roll to avoid it's effects, even if I had slim chances of succeeding.

You should also roll if you want to perform some unconventional feat, E.G. I want to attack while backflipping. I think I would suffer a penalty to hit and be required to roll a DEX check of an unknown difficult level to successfully backflip.

Keep in mind that the AC is not only Armor Class, it's also the difficulty to hit an object. The basic defense. You pick your base AC (10 I guess) + armor & shield bonus + DEX mod (so it represents how nimble you are) + other situation mods, as having a cover or being focused in dodging/parring/evading everything (this is why you normally don't roll to evade, it works as a bonus).


Here are the standard saving throws according to the quick guide:

SAVE TYPE ​	CATEGORIES
STRENGTH​	Paralysis, Constriction
INTELLIGENCE​	Arcane Magic, Illusions
WISDOM​	Divine Magic, Confusion, Gaze, Polymorph/Petrification
DEXTERITY​	Breath Weapon, Traps
CONSTITUTION​	Disease, Energy Drain, Poison
CHARISMA​	Death Attack, Charm, Fear
VARIABLE​	Spells (see spell descriptions)

 

[Ravana]

My guess is that Rydh could roll a "charge" for the jump attack. (+2 to-hit, but at a cose: -4 AC!)

Actually, rule book says +2 damage, not to hit; not sure if Steerpike ruled differently at some point.

I checked the rules to make sure I was really able to use my +4 bonus to defend against the fart cloud, and not only am I sure I can because of the above, but I don't have to worry about rolling in the next turn(s), do I? (I rolled a 23!)

Well, in general terms, it would depend on the mechanism of action: holding your breath don't do jack against lachrymatory or contact agents (apart from the fact that inhaling those makes things even worse for ya).

In this case, since the critter description specifies "nausea" ((that's player knowledge: not sure if that's been mentioned in-game yet)), I'd say holding your breath would work for subsequent rounds—but that you wouldn't necessarily get the +4 to the initial save, because you weren't already trying to resist it. You were surprised, you didn't know it was there until you'd already inhaled some… depends on how close to instantly you can trigger the ability, and how close to instantly the gas has an effect. Since you do have to activate the ability, you may not be able to do it rapidly enough to get the bonus on the initial save. (To take a real-world example: chlorine gas—slow enough you'd be able to resist it; sarin—probably not.)

Of course, with a roll like that, it hardly matters.

•

From a personal interpretation: I'd also say that holding your breath only works so well for so long when you're engaged in vigorous physical activities… such as combat. Yes, athletes can swim underwater for long distances if they care to—though part of the reason they care to is because it actually requires less energy than swimming on the surface. (It's also faster. Which is why competition rules were modified to allow only so much time spent under during turnarounds.) Take a gander at how often athletes don't hold their breath for long periods when swimming on the surface, to get some idea of how rapidly performance drops off with lack of fresh oxygen: I've seen them do 50m sprints without breathing, but that's it.

So "holding your breath for long periods" to avoid drowning while you're trying to reach the surface, or to escape a cloud of gas, or to out-stubborn a toddler, may well be a far cry from doing it while fighting. I'd modify my initial answer by saying that in situation such as the present one, if all you're doing is trying not to breathe in the gas, then you wouldn't need to make additional saves for quite a few rounds; if you're fighting, you may need to make them every round, albeit at your +4 bonus. You may also experience cumulative penalties to your performance over time even if you do manage to hold your breath, though I'd say these wouldn't start mattering until after a few rounds.

That's also assuming anyone in the room needs to make a save more than once. Most of the time, effects are one-shot, to keep things simple: you save, you've successfully resisted this attack, this time; you're good for the present. Depends on how the GM wants to rule on the issue. It also might depend on how long the effect lingers: an effect that creates a "cloud" will sometimes require saves each round (though some specifically say they do not, too). If this is more of a sudden burst/spray/squirt of something, it may dissipate/precipitate rapidly enough that it won't linger.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I'm hoping it's a one-shot for everyone, since my character is the only PC who has the odds on her side.

Charge is 2 to hit in the Combat thread. I did see the rule book, but at that point we'd been playing for a while and I've charged a lot. I like the charge increasing the chance of hitting as much as I'd like it to increase damage, so I didn't ask if that was a typo or house rule.

• Primeval Instincts. Barbarians can tap into primeval strengths that are closer to animal instincts than the abilities of men. They can only do this if they throw themselves fully at the challenge, without hesitation, debate, or consideration. The Barbarian gains a +4 to checks for feats of STR, DEX, or CON. This includes the ability to hold one's breath for extended periods of time, run longer distances, survive longer in extreme environments, and so on.

In bold is the only stated limitation. So far, the only time I didn't use Primary Instinct for a feat was when Baldhart was using a hammer. It was too careful, and it was a follow up of her failure to break something. I couldn't justify: "Grrrr! Let me reach into my backpack and get my little hammer and chip away at the seams of this secret passage—ANGRILY!"

But an instinctive reaction to a lizard fart makes sense.

Did I just type that?

 

[Ravana]

Since you were nice enough to create this thread, Steerpike, let me be the first to ask a question: If a certain now-shieldless cleric decided to perform a sort of jump attack, would that be of any real benefit?

Let me desribe what I mean. Let's say Rydh grips his longsword with two hands, charges an enemy, leaps, and tries to drive his sword into the target and knock it down at the same time. Could that work? Would it do extra damage? Could an enemy be knocked off its feet?

Steerpike will have to interpret.

•

My answer would be that it would be ill-advised to try. If nothing else, you're attempting two distinct actions: striking with the sword and attempting to overbear. Since you only get one attack per round, you may have to choose which one you're focusing on—presumably, the sword attack; knocking the enemy down may be a circumstantial result, but not something you can rely on happening.

To which I will add: leaving your feet in combat is rarely a good idea. There's no guarantee you'll be able to get them back under you at the far end of the attempt. Blow your attack roll, and you'll probably be the one on the ground… you might be even if you succeed in the attack.

Also, flying through the air may look impressive, but unless it involves a significant gravity assist, you're losing force, not gaining it, from the instant you leave your feet: your leverage comes from the ground you stand on. Your weight won't matter unless you can get it moving downward relative to your target (were you jumping off the table at the trog, this might make a small difference); if the attack is essentially straight-on, at best you won't be putting any more force against the target than you'd be able to by simply staying on your feet and charging normally. So even if you get away with the maneuver, it won't necessarily provide any advantages—other than perhaps surprising the opponent, at least. A factor which should never be underestimated, no matter how the physics of the situation work out for you.

•

A question on Ireth's behalf:

A lizard is fighting Baldhart with a skillet. (Worked in Tangled.) Can Cadell clobber the lizard with his shield? (Worked in Game of Thrones.)

For whatever reason, C&C didn't include Shield Bash as a maneuver. Could be interpreted as a Charge or Overbearing, depending on what the attacker wants to do; if a Charge, damage would be as a minor improvised weapon at best, and would probably count as Subdual damage. If the shield were swung… I'd say the attack would suffer non-proficiency penalties (normally -4 to hit), and do damage as a minor improvised weapon, though in this case it might be counted as normal HP damage (if striking with the edge, say).

Note that swinging the shield will surrender its defensive properties—i.e. it won't add to AC at the same time. It may or may not when charging/overbearing: it's still in front of you, covering a large part of your body; on the other hand, you aren't using it as an active part of your defense.

The skillet would do regular damage (it's small, heavy and metal: force is concentrated). Could fall in the vicinity of a club or light mace (1d6, though 1d4 might be more reasonable), though unless the user is practiced in wielding it, non-proficiency penalties would probably apply there as well.

•

Note that in both the above "charging" cases, if the C&C rules are used as written, neither would count as a Charge, since the charging attacker "must minimally move the full distance of their normal movement rate." Which is baloney: you can work up to your full speed in a couple steps, and you certainly don't continue to accelerate past the first four or five on the outside. But that's how they have it, so it'll be a GM call whether or not to adhere to this. Under most circumstances, I wouldn't; however, the distances involved in this case may be too little to grant an exception even if this isn't adhered to generally.

For comparison purposes, as seems appropriate: D&D3e: charges must move at least 10 feet. Much more reasonable. They also give the +2 bonus to hit, not to damage (I'm less sanguine about that one…), and their AC penalty is only -2 (meh; I could go either way there). Shield bash attacks cause 1d3 with small shields, 1d4 with large (I honestly don't think the size of shield should make a difference, as you aren't concentrating any greater force to the impact area… well, unless you've tied the shield's handle to a rope and are swinging it over your head: then, yeah…); AC bonus from the shield is lost for that round.

 

[Nihal]

Hypothetically speaking... Ravana, do you think a 25 feet forward jump/10 feet upward would help in a charge, maybe even eliminating some of the distance you're required to run to consider it a charge?

 

[Ravana]

Hypothetically speaking... Ravana, do you think a 25 feet forward jump/10 feet upward would help in a charge, maybe even eliminating some of the distance you're required to run to consider it a charge?

Probably, yes—I'm guessing you're referring to the Jump spell here. Since this is far more distance than you can usually cover, it might be interpreted as you moving faster than you normally would… though it could just as easily be interpreted as you floating gracefully from one point to the other (you don't leap, you jeté ). You would also be moving at least slightly downward relative to a human-sized opponent, so unless the latter interpretation is used, gravity may help a bit. Probably not much: a downward fall of 10' is a minimal acceleration. Changing the angle of impact could make overbearing attempts more difficult to resist, however. Situational.

My leaning would be to treat this as a Charge, to keep things simple: you'd end up with the same bonuses (and penalties).

Note also that the spell description quite specifically mentions that you don't automatically land on your feet.…

[Edit: I might be inclined to allow you to add the 1d6 damage a fall of 10' causes if you deliberately surrendered the graceful landing in favor of putting all the force into "landing" on the opponent. In which case, you'd have zero chance of landing on your feet: either you're in a pile with your target, or you bounce off and are staring up at him, waiting for him to decide exactly how he's gonna disassemble you.]

 

[Nihal]

Yup, I never forgot the detail about the landing. I'm assuming that when attempting such (stupid) feats a DEX check would be required in order to not face-smash something.

Unless I'm using it as a mean of escape I would put all the force on the landing... I can attempt to hop backward later, haha (naive thinking ftw). Oh, and this spell sounds very physical: The components are the strong hind legs of jumping animals. It only mentions who astonishing are the leaps, not how strange they may be. Also, there is already a floating spell, I don't think they would overlap two spells this much.

In truth my biggest worry right now is being true to my magical accuracy. My strategies are of no use if I keep a 2/10 ratio.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Curiosity: how long does the "-1 to all rolls" effect from the lizard fart last?

Irony: Cadell's going all defense, so the shield wall will not suffer!

Stupidity: I forgot to use intimidate again. Oh, well. Seeing how my to-hit and STR rolls were both 20/21, I don't think it'll matter how scared the lizard is—if it survives the turn.

Correlation: being intimidated is like inhaling two lizard farts, or one after the lizard ate a hard boiled egg.

Damnation: to any grown man who eats a hard boiled egg on a four hour bus ride.

Distraction: only the first line has an actual question. Sorry I got carried away.

 

[Ravana]

Charge is 2 to hit in the Combat thread. I did see the rule book, but at that point we'd been playing for a while and I've charged a lot.

Yep. Just pointing out the difference: if the GM wants it to be on the to hit roll rather than damage, that's his choice.

Primeval Instincts. Barbarians can tap into primeval strengths that are closer to animal instincts than the abilities of men. They can only do this if they throw themselves fully at the challenge, without hesitation, debate, or consideration. The Barbarian gains a +4 to checks for feats of STR, DEX, or CON. This includes the ability to hold one's breath for extended periods of time, run longer distances, survive longer in extreme environments, and so on.

In bold is the only stated limitation. So far, the only time I didn't use Primary Instinct for a feat was when Baldhart was using a hammer. It was too careful, and it was a follow up of her failure to break something. I couldn't justify: "Grrrr! Let me reach into my backpack and get my little hammer and chip away at the seams of this secret passage—ANGRILY!"

But an instinctive reaction to a lizard fart makes sense.

Not arguing, just interpreting.

Consider: you cannot "throw yourself fully at a challenge" until you are aware the challenge exists. Otherwise, this would behave as a constant +4 modifier. At a minimum, you need to have a reason to trigger this ability, i.e. you need to have something to "throw yourself" into. (You don't have the cliché option of "throwing yourself into life." )

An instinctive reaction to a perceived gas attack makes sense, yes; my point was that whether or not you get to use this bonus in a given situation will likely depend on how rapidly that gas takes effect, and even more importantly on how much needs to be inhaled to produce that effect. If the amount required for you to notice it at all is equal to the amount of a lethal dose, you probably would not get the bonus—on the first round; you would if you needed to save again in subsequent ones.

In this situation, I would be inclined to say that yes, you can invoke that bonus: I can't see the toxin here being remotely that powerful. Were you to face trogs in the future, now that you know what they can do, I'd rule as follows: you may elect to hold your breath when entering the combat… but if you do not, you cannot use Primal Instinct later to resist their gas attack, because you have already made a reasoned decision in the matter—you've applied "consideration" to it. You may, of course, choose to hold your breath at any later moment… but you're on par with anyone else doing this: you don't get the bonus.

(The full description also says you can activate the bonus as a "last-ditch effort." This still states the same qualifiers about "hesitating" or "debating," however. Continuing the example above, I'd say that if you chose not to use the ability immediately upon becoming aware the possibility of facing the gas existed, you've "debated" it and don't get to invoke "last-ditch" simply because you get gassed at some point later on in the combat. The situation would have to change in some meaningful way, to make it qualify as truly "last-ditch": all your comrades lying on the ground bleeding out, maybe.)

•

If one were to get really nitpicky, one might say that you can't get the bonus to holding your breath while you're fighting… because you aren't "throwing yourself fully" at that challenge. What you're doing is fighting: holding your breath is a subsidiary action. If you want to stop fighting, and just hold your breath—i.e. throw yourself fully into doing so—then yeah, sure, no problem: bonus works fine.

I highly doubt Steerpike would apply that line of reasoning to this situation… nor would I, were I running it. In this situation. And a great many others: holding your breath while underwater won't be a whole lot of use unless you're also allowed to swim at the same time, for example. However—it is also good to keep in mind that, as is the case with any ability in the game, the conditions stated are there to prevent this from becoming an utterly unbalancing capacity. Or, to employ another cliché: "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is."

I would also add that the descriptions Steerpike put on the forum—of just about everything—are paraphrases of what's in the rule book. In some cases, these might represent deliberate changes (I'm not aware of any, but he also had no reason to mention they were); in at least a couple they might represent variations from one edition to another (I'm using 4th printing, so it's always possible what I'm extracting from it doesn't match what he's got). In other cases, the details omitted might be telling, depending on just how closely he wishes to adhere to the more complete version. Which, of course, is why there's a thread to ask about the rules.…

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Well, luckily, Steerpike seems interpret Primary Instinct in a way that I get to use it often. I mostly use it for fun, but that +4 just gives me the confidence to use it a lot. I don't always benefit (take damage, get slippery guts all over my hands, etc.) but I DO continue to use the skill because it's fun!

 

[Steerpike]

I'll try to sit down with a rule book and go through some of these things. I tend to interpret things fairly loosely in favor of the players having fun. Particularly when it comes to dedicated class abilities. Let's face it, as GM, you have complete control over the difficulty of encounters, so I like to give players a lot of latitude to enjoy their characters.

 

[Ravana]

I'll try to sit down with a rule book and go through some of these things. I tend to interpret things fairly loosely in favor of the players having fun. Particularly when it comes to dedicated class abilities. Let's face it, as GM, you have complete control over the difficulty of encounters, so I like to give players a lot of latitude to enjoy their characters.

Yep yep. Way it should be.

By the by: as the ability is written, Baldhart can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to her CON, no rolls required. So that part, at least, should probably be safely covered.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I'll try to sit down with a rule book and go through some of these things. I tend to interpret things fairly loosely in favor of the players having fun. Particularly when it comes to dedicated class abilities. Let's face it, as GM, you have complete control over the difficulty of encounters, so I like to give players a lot of latitude to enjoy their characters.

I dare say this is the main reason that you have a solid player base that's sticking to this game for the third consecutive month, and why so many of us are enthusiastic about the game. I also noticed you don't have NPCs that out-awesome the players with god-like stats and abilities that players will never obtain even if the game goes on for five solid years. Darin's +2 to-hit roll (wimp!) shows he's a peer, not a level 20 grandmaster superhero whose hammer is a hand-me-down from Thor.

Also, for the record, I did check with Steerpike about Baldhart's use of Primary Instinct STR checks being done every time she charges. Without quoting details from the conversation, the message was not just that it's okay, but it's also encouraged. I think the best time to say "you can't do that" is when there's a rule that clearly indicates you can't (like one person shielding another player getting an AC bonus—a clear "no" since the shield has an AC bonus, and there's no "shielding others" rule in the book—which is what I was wondering when I asked) or when the player goes too far ("My STR check is a 28! I rip the entire castle from its foundation and throw it to the moon!").