Witchcraft, Vodoo, and Alchemy

[trentonian7]

Three fairly different magical traditions in history, witchcraft, vodoo, and alchemy. What comes to mind when you hear each of these words and, in a fantasy sense, how would you imagine them to differentiate from eachother?

 

[Gryphos]

Witchcraft conjures up ideas specifically of curses, using magic in s sinister way for sinister things. That's the way it was historically seen, at least. Alchemy seems more like a science, basically just fiddly diddly chemistry and whatnot. Voodoo isn't anything to do with 'magic', rather it is an actual real world religion and so probably shouldn't be used in a purely fantastical setting, and if it is, it should be done with a metric shitload of caution.

 

[trentonian7]

Witchcraft conjures up ideas specifically of curses, using magic in s sinister way for sinister things. That's the way it was historically seen, at least. Alchemy seems more like a science, basically just fiddly diddly chemistry and whatnot. Voodoo isn't anything to do with 'magic', rather it is an actual real world religion and so probably shouldn't be used in a purely fantastical setting, and if it is, it should be done with a metric shitload of caution.

I don't plan on using the term "vodoo" and I don't even know that I'll use the term "witchcraft." I want to develop different types of magic and I thought this would be an interesting place to draw inspiration from.

 

[Pythagoras]

Voodoo as a practice has many things in common with what people believed to be witchcraft. In fact, the largest difference as far as I can tell is the culture that believes/practices it. Everything else is just details.

 

[Pythagoras]

Witchcraft conjures up ideas specifically of curses, using magic in s sinister way for sinister things. That's the way it was historically seen, at least. Alchemy seems more like a science, basically just fiddly diddly chemistry and whatnot. Voodoo isn't anything to do with 'magic', rather it is an actual real world religion and so probably shouldn't be used in a purely fantastical setting, and if it is, it should be done with a metric shitload of caution.

I have to say I disagree with this. You speak of the imagery that witchcraft conjures up, implying that no such thing exists or ever existed outside of the literary world, while limiting Voodoo to it's real-world meaning. Let me try to explain what I mean by this:

There was a time when witchcraft was believed to be a very real threat in Europe. There are certain things that a witch was supposed to be able to do, all of which (which witch is which) can be placed under the umbrella term "magic." No one outside of Europe called these practitioners of magic witches, though different cultures had their own versions of the same idea.

... Such as Voodoo in the Caribbean, which is a religion only in the loosest sense of the word (this isn't meant as a slight; certain parameters must be met before a bunch of beliefs can really be called a religion). Voodoo, it seems to me, is only half a hair closer to being an organized religion than European paganism was. And it can be argued that European paganism is the root of what we call witchcraft. Furthermore, magic is fundamental to belief in Voodoo. If someone is said to be practicing Voodoo, that means that they are practicing magic. Of course practitioners of Voodoo do not see themselves as malevolent, but the people who persecuted witches on grounds of sacrilege would have seen no difference between witchcraft and Voodoo.

Some people nowadays even practice witchcraft in the form of Wicca, treating it as much as a religion as Voodoo is treated. I don't think we need to let political correctness get in the way of storytelling here. Otherwise you run the risk of offending many Wiccans by using that derogatory term witchcraft (and to split hairs even further, I've read that practitioners of Voodoo actually prefer the term Vodoun anyway. Probably because Voodoo, to use your words, conjures up certain images in people's minds of malevolent magic. Think Voodoo doll here).

So while they are not necessarily the same thing, I think that depending on the setting of the story, witchcraft and Voodoo can be used interchangeably.


I enjoy your treatment of alchemy, on the other hand. Fiddly diddly chemistry. Ha.

 

[skip.knox]

I would, in a fantasy sense, make alchemy essentially a science. Particularly, if you are familiar with the details, the sort of science one finds in the 15thc and 16thc, when Modern Science was still in its infancy.

Witchcraft really divides into two different streams. Well, lots of streams, but I'll pretend there are only two for this discussion. One is naturalistic, the other is specifically Christian.

In its naturalistic tradition, European witchcraft is fairly close to voodoo. And to druidism. There are natural forces at work in the world, and the witch can tap into these. The witch can do good or do evil. The forces are just forces. It is unlike Science, though, in that there's no point to experimentation. The roles of the individual and of circumstance are vital to the outcome. It would be as if the result of experiments depended on the character of the scientist, and even of the temperment of the object.

Religious witches, otoh, derived their power directly from the Devil and his minions. At least, according to their persecutors! The witch himself/herself has no power, no ability to do anything. The witch is merely a conduit for the demonic power. Any number of shamanistic practices fall into this tradition.

I can see fantasy applications for all these traditions. In one, the ... let's call them all wizards ... is a scientist and proceeds scientifically. Another wizard is a servant of the gods (or devils) and does their bidding (or contrives to have them do his, through prayer or conjuring). A third wizard has a special power or relationship with one or more (super)natural forces. I can see lots of opportunity there for rivalry or cooperation (and betrayal!).

That was an interesting point about witches in other cultures. I wonder if there are witches in Hindu. Over in China there are sorcerers, but I think those mainly deal with demons. Or maybe I have watched Big Trouble in Little China too many times!

BTW and FWIW, I would place herblore and its cousins in the scientific tradition. Your herbalist might be pre-scientific, relying solely on received tradition, but there's no implication of the supernatural there.

 

[Svrtnsse]

As far as images go...
Witchcraft:
Old women, pointy hats, cauldrons, flying on broom sticks, black cats, covens, more cauldrons.
Voodoo:
Jungles, fires, drums, masks, dolls, shrunken heads, more fire and more drums.
Alchemy:
Men, spectacles, cauldrons, quasi-scientific symbols and formulas, laboratories, indoors, cauldrons.

This above is in no way based on any kind of actual facts. It's really just the images that first come to mind when reading the words.

 

[Russ]

Voodoo is all about the cigars man....all about the cigars.

 

[Banten]

Witchcraft makes me think of men with thick beards and eerily beautiful women in robes carrying staffs while chanting to the full moon and dancing at Stonehenge. Voodoo conjures up both the image of baron samedi, zombies, voodoo dolls but also of papa doc's regime in haiti. And alchemy is clever, old, excentric men with long beards and medieval clothing pondering in some small laboratory in a tall tower.

 

[Pythagoras]

There are magic users in Hindu myth. Not that they would be called witches, or even wizards for that matter. But there are characters, whether mortal or from some other plane of existence (demons, gods, etc...), that can manipulate maya (my admittedly limited understanding of Hindu myth is that maya is basically a force of illusion, but more than that, it is the illusion that we might call reality) through practice of asceticism, for purposes wicked or good. I don't know if there is a specific word in Sanskrit or whatever other language these ancient (some possibly pre-dating our Homie), yet living and constantly evolving stories.

My understanding of Indian history and culture is probably even less than my mythology, but I would imagine that, like western cultures, where there are ancient stories of wizards and sorcerers, there are "witches" practicing at some place and time within society.

 

[skip.knox]

You bring up an interesting and worthwhile point, Pythagoras. Looking across existing cultures, there's a difference between someone who does or uses magic, and someone who is a wizard (generic term meant to cover witch, sorcerer, whatever). One might be a priest or shaman or monk who invokes a demon or casts a spell, but that's different from the wizard whose role in society is to be a wizard.

Then again, maybe that's a role peculiar to Western fantasy. Our stories are filled with wizards, mages, call them what you like, but that's essentially their job, like carpenter or farmer. In many societies, though, it's just a holy man or even the lowly farmer, who says the magic words, uses the magic stone, meditates just so, and taps into magical forces. It doesn't define who they are.

It would be interesting to know if the terms in Japanese or Bantu or whatever for "magic user" are as varied and nuanced as they are in English.

 

[ThinkerX]

That was an interesting point about witches in other cultures. I wonder if there are witches in Hindu. Over in China there are sorcerers, but I think those mainly deal with demons. Or maybe I have watched Big Trouble in Little China too many times!

One of the cultures on my secondary world is a badly mangled and twisted version of India. I changed a lot of things around, but from what I recollect of my now lost notes...

Fakir - Illusionist or petty mage in India, low caste entertainer type.

Brahman - Member of the priest caste, some of whom are reputed to know spells. Family cults dedicated to specific deities.

Ascetics - From any caste, individuals who have dropped out of normal society to pursue enlightenment. Purportedly, some learn magic along the way. As the name implies, almost nothing in the way of possessions.

Also supposed to be a sort of middle class wizard type, possibly obtaining magic via deals with spirits.

(Some of this was stolen from an AD&D handbook - in my defense, I was thinking game setting at the time, rather than story.)