Avoiding Abusing the Secret Service

[MiguelDHorcrux]

Hello, all.

Have you guys encountered this problem whereas some of your characters has access to spies and secret service and whatnot and you just feel like abusing it to advance your plot and overcome obstacles? Consider Varys in A Song of Ice and Fire. All we know is that he has little birds/spies, and he simply tells the small council what they want to know. Do you consider this as another form of deus ex machina? In my story, the protagonist is backed by his grandfather who was a retired statesman and one of the most powerful mages in the world. And as such, he has a network of spies all over the world. The antagonist has his own network. Is it cheating if, since my character is looking for this sword in a faraway land while receiving updates from his grandfather every once in a while, I just present to him the location in the form of a scroll or a letter from said grandfather?

And of course espionage is prone to counter espionage. Ugh. Any thoughts on this?

 

[TheKillerBs]

Strictly speaking, a deus ex machina is an unexpected, convenient intervention from someone or something that resolves your current dilemma, so in that sense, no, abusing your spy network is not a deus ex machina. Like any other abuse of a resource, though, it can feel cheap, especially if the audience doesn't perceive any drawbacks from using that resource.

 

[KC Trae Becker]

Great thread here. Thanks for starting it.

In my WIP, my ancient, magical people have spies all over the place from all sides. After reading this topic I realized I need someway to limit the flow of information somehow. Draw backs and payouts are going to need to be built up. Hopefully that will stem the tide.

 

[skip.knox]

Spies don't always get reliable information. You could establish some uncertainty earlier, so the information about the sword doesn't feel like a done deal from the start. There could also be the possibility of the message being misinformation from the enemy.

My main objection to spies in fantasy novels is that they aren't really needed. A spy is more or less a modern invention. Much more common was simply the use of locals for information. For example, merchants from City A could be expected to provide information to the City Council upon their return. Venice did this, but so did other cities. Any visiting prince would be expected to keep eyes and ears open.

More common for actual spying would be during a war, sending someone into enemy lines to gather information. That was done right back into ancient times.

 

[DMThaane]

My main objection to spies in fantasy novels is that they aren't really needed. A spy is more or less a modern invention. Much more common was simply the use of locals for information. For example, merchants from City A could be expected to provide information to the City Council upon their return. Venice did this, but so did other cities. Any visiting prince would be expected to keep eyes and ears open.

More common for actual spying would be during a war, sending someone into enemy lines to gather information. That was done right back into ancient times.

While it's true that military intelligence was always common civilian spy networks have existed just as long. Hadrian turned the frumentarii (wheat collectors) into a spy network, the use of spies and assassins is detailed in the Indian Arthashastra which was most likely written around the 2nd-century or 3rd-century BCE, and ambassadors habitually spied on the countries they were sent to. More modern and well-documented examples include the work of Francis Walsingham and the Culper Ring. Modern human intelligence may function on a different scale but in many ways it is not fundamentally different, and why would it be? Paying disaffected people to give you information or stealing/recording written correspondences could be life or death in politics as well as war.

Incidentally, here's a quote from the translation of the Arthashastra I have on hand.

A woman-spy under the guise of an ascetic and highly esteemed in the harem of the king may allure each prime minister (mahámátra) one after another, saying "the queen is enamoured of thee and has made arrangements for thy entrance into her chamber; besides this, there is also the certainty of large acquisitions of wealth."

If they discard the proposal, they are pure. This is what is styled love-allurement.

Not exactly wartime intelligence gathering but it does resemble modern counter-espionage.

 

[skip.knox]

Much depends here on definitions of terms, so I won't quibble. Except on one point. The office of ambassador doesn't appear in Europe until the late 15thc. I reference Donald Queller's book The Office of Ambassador in the Middle Ages.

But, honestly, I don't fret over such things when reading a story, at least not if it's a good story.

 

[Banten]

Finding secret knowledge will take even a spy some time, considering the fact that secrets are secret for a reason. So you can just say that this secret service only lends its knowledge once to the protagonist, without making it weird. No necessity to abuse the secret service I think.

 

[Miskatonic]

If you throw in the possibility of spies and other agents of espionage being treacherous and changing sides for ideological or economic reasons then they become a resource that must be used wisely.

 

[Drakevarg]

Could just ask yourself HOW the spies would've gotten the information in the first place and perhaps more importantly, why that doesn't render the hero totally irrelevant. Like if Grandpa Spymaster has an agent in the inner court of the Dark Lord Mustachetwirl who can report on his every move... why not just have that spy assassinate Lord Mustachetwirl and solve everyone's problem?

I found Dragon Age: Inquisition kind of annoying in this respect as every last one of Leliana's options on the strategy board began with "our spies have..." or "our spies can..." Started to make me wonder why we didn't just immediately end all of the side conflicts instantly since we demonstrably have a crack ninja squad on-site already. Let them handle it while they're in the neighborhood and just call me in to fight the elder evils or whatever.

Spy networks are a useful narrative tool like any other, but if they either make the story come off as unsatisfying or unnecessary they should be scooted off the board.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

One of the most difficult continuity issues in writing in my view is working what each character knows at each point in the book. Spy networks are a convenient way of making your character know what he needs to know at a point in a book to advance the plot. But actually one of the most fun things I like to do is use them to give characters wrong or limited information. Things that cause characters to act in certain ways which aren't actually merited by the situation.

So for eample in my latest work my character / villain is a king and his spies have reported that the elves are marching west towards his realm. They don't know why, so he has to deal with the thought that it may be some sort of attack, when in actual fact they're fleeing an enemy.

In my view, you can have fun with spies!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[DMThaane]

Much depends here on definitions of terms, so I won't quibble. Except on one point. The office of ambassador doesn't appear in Europe until the late 15thc. I reference Donald Queller's book The Office of Ambassador in the Middle Ages.

If I may quibble your quibble, I never said that ambassadors predated the 15th century. I took 'modern' to refer to the late modern period but if you were referring to early modern than it is debatably true that ambassadors are a 'modern' invention. Regardless, diplomatic envoys have existed for considerably longer and also habitually saw use as spies.

I found Dragon Age: Inquisition kind of annoying in this respect as every last one of Leliana's options on the strategy board began with "our spies have..." or "our spies can..." Started to make me wonder why we didn't just immediately end all of the side conflicts instantly since we demonstrably have a crack ninja squad on-site already. Let them handle it while they're in the neighborhood and just call me in to fight the elder evils or whatever.

And yet they were never quite good enough to stop the Inquisitor from being blindsided by Venatori/Red Templar/Qunari. Maybe Leliana should've spent less time monitoring the average pie consumption of Orlesian nobles and instead kept an eye on the mass mobilisation of enemy resources and personnel. Dragon Age: Inquisition pulled a neat trick in making the spy network simultaneously too powerful and yet almost completely ineffective.

 

[Miskatonic]

I personally cannot stand Leliana. She was tolerable in the first game but in Inquisition she's just a waste of space.

I like the idea of a thieves guilds and city dwelling peasants that will spy for the right price, as opposed to some fancy schmancy royal spy group.

When dirty work has to be done it's better that it doesn't trace back to who is ordering it, so using outside talent is advantageous. The only problem is how easily information is extracted from them if they are captured.